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The_Real_Evan
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Not a meme post.

Arguments I've heard is that jug is "fun" and that it gives someone a reason to want to be the last human alive. I believe it leads to far more unfun gameplay than otherwise and heres why;

 

"You should be rewarded for being last alive" : Humans already receive bonus points for being the last one alive. For the chance of being jugg players will actively do things that harm the team. From making skycades inside of cades and not participating in shooting the zombies or healing teammates and wasting props. Generally more skilled players will start as a zombie so that they can redeem when the cade falls thus having a greater chance of being jugg which leads to quick map losses as all the good players are playing on the zombie side from the start, though I know some like to zmain I know jugg is always in their head.

 

When a jug does trigger we now have typically 50-70 zombie players that have to run around the map being spawn killed in a 50m raidus from the jug rocket. This is a scenario where one player (the jug) is having a good time kicking ass and 70 players (the zombies) are spawn kill fodder for minutes.

 

The combination of the jugs high health, and the rpg make him a frustration, and keep in mind it is frustrating to the 70 zombie players that just want to get to the next map or replay the current one.

 

My argument TLDR: Jug promotes a negative playstyle even before one spawns in as a jug, jug is very frustrating to take down with his rpg 1 shot kill with massive splash and his high health pool. It leads to one person having a good time and 60-70 people having a shit time getting spawn camped.  

 

My Ideas for solutions are as follows:

 

  • Remove jug from the game

  • Put jug into a bonus crate similiar to the dark knight, paladin, etc with timed life

  • Reduce the amount of RPG rockets jug has to 5 total, change minigun clipsize from 150-500

  • Change the jug reward from last human to best zombie

  • Change jug reward from last human to a random zombie 


 

Thank you for reading and I would appreciate a discussion and to know if I’m the only one who feels this way.



 

-Evan

Edited by The_Real_Evan
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I know it serves no other purpose other than getting some points and extending the game a bit longer(zombies pretty much won at this point), but removing it is a bit extreme.

Yes i know some people who i think we all know just do whatever is in their reach to get jug every time they can, it was nerfed to only obtain 1/2 points from zombies and besides that, it is very slow and usually gets overwhelmed in a few secs, maybe ban jug from getting bonus crates but it's really a hard decision.

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The combination of the jugs high health, and the rpg make him a frustration, and keep in mind it is frustrating to the 70 zombie players that just want to get to the next map or replay the current one.

 

You said it right here, the 70 ZOMBIE players, on top of that there are at least 5-8 BOSS ZOMBIES. Jug is lucky to last a wave, and has to rely on bonus crates. Jug is an opportunity for a map to change or to replay. Jug does not need to be removed or nerfed, as I can only recount 2 times where jug lasted to wave 6, cause he spawned on wave 5 intermission. No need to remove or nerf anything about him. He is a juggernaut, and it depends on if the player who obtains jug knows how to use him, as a kleiner jug wont last nearly as long as an expierienced jug. His RPG is just that. an RPG. Certain zombies can survive the rpg, like poison zombie with blood armour, so it isnt as OP as you think. it also has a long reload time, again, taking away from the OP nature of an RPG.

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So, one thing I will agree with you with @The_Real_Evan is that the Juggernaut as a last-human reward promotes selfish behavior, and I've seen this happen many times ever since Juggernaut got added. Yes, players will do nothing and try to hide to be the last one alive to get Juggernaut, or players would force themselves to be zombie so they can go for an early or late redeem, only to end up as Juggernaut in the end. On rare occasions, players would attempt to sabotage others' survival to be the last one standing, but that results in them getting banned. Frankly, Juggernaut makes people selfish, and it narrows their focus to what matters for the team; no denying that.

Personally, however, I wouldn't want Juggernaut completely removed only because it turns players selfish or it seems unfair and not fun for the 60-70 players that have to try killing it.

The reason why Juggernaut is a thing is because we want being the last human alive to be a rewarding experience. You've survived above everyone else, so your reward is that you get to be a hulking giant with mass-murdering weapons. Of course it's going to be fun for the last player because they are becoming something that is unobtainable by any other means other than being the last one left standing, and it's rewarding for the player to become an almost-unstoppable killing machine.

 

Your reasoning

One thing you mentioned was how the Juggernaut spawn-kills zombies. I don't see that happen as much as you think. You'd be surprised how small the range of the rocket is when shot close to point-blank range, which is what I see most Juggernaut players do. They wait for a horde to show up, then shoot it a small distance from them to maximize kills and profit; that isn't spawn-killing because most of the time, zombie spawns are far away. I see the Juggernaut insta-killing zombies, but not killing them in their spawns. Most of the time, the Juggernaut would be running to the edge of the map, or trying to get to high ground to kill zombies that approach it from a safer distance, and that's just in-game strategy. It makes sense to get on something zombies can't reach so you can kill them freely; that has nothing to do with the Juggernaut being flawed.

Another thing you mentioned was that it's frustrating to fight the Juggernaut because most zombie players just want to move on to the next map. Often times, I don't hear players whining or complaining about Juggernaut being a waste of time, and if some do whine, it's not all the players on the server, so what you're saying isn't correct. It sounds to me like you're the one being frustrated with the Juggernaut, but it also sounds like you're speaking on behalf of the players, which I would ask why are you doing that, or who asked you to do that?

One more thing you mentioned was how many good zombie players go zombie to try to become Juggernaut. I'm looking at this statement as an opinion, not a fact. Many players would go zombie because they're z-mains, they hate the current map and want to change it fast, or they just like being zombie. To be a zombie to end up as the Juggernaut in the end is a reason that I rarely hear from players, primarily because I don't ask, and also because players don't explain their motives behind their actions. You can't assume most players that go zombie, good zombie players at that, do it just for the Juggernaut. Maybe they're z-mains, maybe they find zombie being fun, at the end of the day, there are various reasons for why people go zombie, some of which are forced, and some of which are by choice.

Probably the most important thing I've noticed that you said was how because of Juggernaut, since all the good zombie players become zombie, the maps are easily lost. First off, we tend to lose on many maps because no one makes a cade, no one shoots, or both; this has little to do with the Juggernaut itself, and more on a lack of human team cooperation. The only reason why the zombies could be killing everyone off is because no one's in a cade or no one's shooting or defending, so I don't know where you got this reasoning from.

 

Your solution

First off, outright removing a mechanic that's been a part of the game for a long time is not something we would do immediately. Some of the regular players on our server like fighting our Juggernaut boss, or they just think the feature is cool, which is why they stay. If we remove this immediately without thinking how to properly compensate for it, people are going to leave and move on to another server.

Outright removing something for reasons that are not strongly-supported, and without maybe considering alterations to it, doesn't make sense. It's like saying in the middle of an online match, "Hey, this feature sucks. Let's just remove it without considering the consequences."

Based on what you said, you did mention making the Juggernaut a Bonus Crate effect, but where's the balance in that? If it's armored and has an RPG and Chain Gun, while also having the human team to back it up, wouldn't you find this more broken than just having it be one v. all? It would be a hell of a lot more pain for the zombie team if they have to deal with a boss that can insta-kill them, while also having the humans shoot them; it just wouldn't be right for a change.

Also, limiting the ammo for the Juggernaut would severely undermine it's potential. The Juggernaut tends to die within a few seconds anyway because of the self-damage from its RPG, not to mention it going up against 50+ players at a given moment, Limiting its ammunition to 5 RPG rockets and around 500 Chain Gun ammo is basically telling people, "We hate this boss, so we nerf it hard," when many of us don't actually hate it.

 

That's all I really have to say about this. We really need to stop thinking a good fix is to remove something completely, since that could only create more problems in the future. Unless the feature someone proposed to remove was outright game-breaking, that would be different, but I don't think the Juggernaut is as broken as you think for where it stands and how it's obtained.

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