The History of VALVe

[Daedalus]

Just got through watching these videos. It was a nice insight since I didn't "discover" valve until HL2 launched. (was a Unreal/UT guy waaaaay back when.)

 

Also, pot stirring or not, I think L4D2 doesn't deserve a bit of randomized hatred thrown at it. It's a completely different game and feel is considerably better. Play a few rounds of L4D2, then try some from L4D1, it's markedly worse in a lot of ways. (Although I hold L4D1 was still a very, very good game.) I know people might still be pissed about how soon it was released, but the new content and all the interface and UI changes are just good enough that going back to L4D1 (for me) is damn near impossible. I know the immediate counter-argument will be that they could've backported all this stuff back, but given how different it feels and the content itself... I honestly believe it's a stand alone product.

[Wingless]

Just got through watching these videos. It was a nice insight since I didn't "discover" valve until HL2 launched. (was a Unreal/UT guy waaaaay back when.)

 

Also, pot stirring or not, I think L4D2 doesn't deserve a bit of randomized hatred thrown at it. It's a completely different game and feel is considerably better. Play a few rounds of L4D2, then try some from L4D1, it's markedly worse in a lot of ways. (Although I hold L4D1 was still a very, very good game.) I know people might still be pissed about how soon it was released, but the new content and all the interface and UI changes are just good enough that going back to L4D1 (for me) is damn near impossible. I know the immediate counter-argument will be that they could've backported all this stuff back, but given how different it feels and the content itself... I honestly believe it's a stand alone product.

 

Eh. They tweaked how melee works, gave you a little more variety in how the levels play out and gave you some new locales. It's not really anything that couldn't have been DLC missions on L4D. It's pretty much the exact same damned engine.

[I Love Lamp]

Just got through watching these videos. It was a nice insight since I didn't "discover" valve until HL2 launched. (was a Unreal/UT guy waaaaay back when.)

 

Also, pot stirring or not, I think L4D2 doesn't deserve a bit of randomized hatred thrown at it. It's a completely different game and feel is considerably better. Play a few rounds of L4D2, then try some from L4D1, it's markedly worse in a lot of ways. (Although I hold L4D1 was still a very, very good game.) I know people might still be pissed about how soon it was released, but the new content and all the interface and UI changes are just good enough that going back to L4D1 (for me) is damn near impossible. I know the immediate counter-argument will be that they could've backported all this stuff back, but given how different it feels and the content itself... I honestly believe it's a stand alone product.

 

How is it a new game? How many new zombie types are there? 2, I think? A few new characters (which are really just reskins of the original more than anything), a minor graphical update (CS:Source and DoD:S got graphical updates for free, and theirs had much more marked improvement over the initial ones), and a few new maps isn't worth a 50 dollar price tag. That's at most, a 20 dollar DLC.

 

Another big issue is DLC itself. Valve had promised (repeatedly) that they would fully support L4D, and release regular DLC content for it. Instead, they took what was initially supposed to be DLC content and repackaged it as L4D2 and slapped on a 50 dollar price tag, because they knew people would buy it.

 

Where, for a mere 10 dollars (5 dollars during the sale), you can download the Borderlands DLC and get an entire new island to explore, with a storyline that is actually developed.

 

The fact of the matter is, Valve repeatedly promised DLC content for L4D, and their commitment to that was lacking, at best (yes, they did release a bit of DLC at the very end, but that was mainly to quell the growing anger at them not filling their promises).

[LaMigra]

How is it a new game? How many new zombie types are there? 2, I think? A few new characters (which are really just reskins of the original more than anything), a minor graphical update (CS:Source and DoD:S got graphical updates for free, and theirs had much more marked improvement over the initial ones), and a few new maps isn't worth a 50 dollar price tag. That's at most, a 20 dollar DLC.

 

Another big issue is DLC itself. Valve had promised (repeatedly) that they would fully support L4D, and release regular DLC content for it. Instead, they took what was initially supposed to be DLC content and repackaged it as L4D2 and slapped on a 50 dollar price tag, because they knew people would buy it.

 

Where, for a mere 10 dollars (5 dollars during the sale), you can download the Borderlands DLC and get an entire new island to explore, with a storyline that is actually developed.

 

The fact of the matter is, Valve repeatedly promised DLC content for L4D, and their commitment to that was lacking, at best (yes, they did release a bit of DLC at the very end, but that was mainly to quell the growing anger at them not filling their promises).

 

LAMP ANGRY!! YOU WOULD LIKE LAMP WHEN HE ANGRY... jk lol I agree with lamp on this for sure

[Daedalus]

How is it a new game? How many new zombie types are there? 2, I think? A few new characters (which are really just reskins of the original more than anything), a minor graphical update (CS:Source and DoD:S got graphical updates for free, and theirs had much more marked improvement over the initial ones), and a few new maps isn't worth a 50 dollar price tag. That's at most, a 20 dollar DLC.

 

Another big issue is DLC itself. Valve had promised (repeatedly) that they would fully support L4D, and release regular DLC content for it. Instead, they took what was initially supposed to be DLC content and repackaged it as L4D2 and slapped on a 50 dollar price tag, because they knew people would buy it.

 

Where, for a mere 10 dollars (5 dollars during the sale), you can download the Borderlands DLC and get an entire new island to explore, with a storyline that is actually developed.

 

The fact of the matter is, Valve repeatedly promised DLC content for L4D, and their commitment to that was lacking, at best (yes, they did release a bit of DLC at the very end, but that was mainly to quell the growing anger at them not filling their promises).

 

 

And to you your points are completely valid. My perception of value is different than yours. I got nearly 400 hours out of L4D1 before I started to grow uninterested in it (although that was mainly my friends quitting and I don't like random pubbies.) I'm lucky nowadays to get a good game that lasts 20 hours. For such limited launch content it was an incredible blast. Valve also already delivered two DLC packs for L4D1, the survival pack with survivor mode, and the interim map to fill in the gap/story between the first two campaigns at people's request (and their request for a shorter versus experience.)

 

Also, we have to stop and talk about backporting/this as DLC for L4D1. It wouldn't work. It's broken. NM4 is the first map that comes to mind. A spitter's goo radius is as large as that elevator itself, and unlike dead center, she can actually get inside that elevator. The top floor is charger/jockey heaven. In fact, an overwhelming amount of the rooftop maps would be insanely broken (not the fun kind) against survivors because of cheap deaths. DA1 smoker/hunter pull area, DA2 before you get into the office building, DA4 on the escalator down if you bowl them, NM4, NM5 on the roof, BH3 after you go up from the crescendo, DT1 on the bridge, DT2 in the pipes, and DT5 in the house. I'm sure I missed several other spots, but those jump foremost to my mind. The new infected on the old maps could solo kill a group easily in these circumstances, and at the very least get 1-2 incap/death (bowling). It would be fun to do to others, yes, but the moment that kind of BS was pulled on me I would rage quit.

 

That, my friend, is the balancing issue. That's why Borderlands also got a huge (I'll have to take your credit for it. I haven't gotten to that point yet.) DLC. It's just PvE. L4D is PvP at it's heart. It takes time, money, and effort to find and remove unfair things. The Dead Air map hack prior to survival DLC is good. You could 25 from nearly anywhere on the map and ruin a survivor team in mere seconds since spawning three hunters wasn't hard at all. Death Toll is another good one where a smoker could just yank someone from the ladder up the right side and instantly incap them, or if you did it just right on the second ladder, you could instantly kill them. (Granted you could still do the instant incap on release, just it wasn't NEARLY as easy as before, and smart teams took the left anyway.)

 

Don't get me wrong though, I hear you and sympathize. I too was let down when I heard the announcement for L4D2, but then I played it. All the subtle and large changes end up creating a much better game overall. To me L4D2 is superior in every way, it feels more balanced, it's more fun, and because of locale a lot of the insta-death spots are completely gone. I agree that L4D1 did not get the care I expected, (like TF2, although that game went months and months before "DLC" came,) but at the same time, the value of time from the product is simply unmatched. As I said, I got nearly 400 hours of insanely fun playtime for $54.13 (retail, not steam.) I think L4D1 did it's job because the only games I've ever come close to on that playtime as TF2 (which idling screwed that up. I was at 250 hours before I started doing that all the time prior to the wrist-slap,) maybe Deus Ex since I love doing runthoughs of that every now and again. FFXI trumps that by miles in terms of playtime, but an MMO doesn't really count [to me.] Fallout 3 was 63 hours for me and I was walking around doing every little thing I could, that's the next closest game I can think of, and I payed $100 for that game. (Retail and the DLCs)

 

So as I started, maybe we just have a different perception of value. L4D1 did everything and more for me, I think it was easily worth twice what it retailed for since I got so much from it (both in fun and gametime.) That said, the idea of backporting all the L4D2 content is stupid when you consider the new SI and my examples above. L4D1 was mapped out with those specials in mind. L4D2 was done with the new ones in mind. It just wouldn't work. Now as for the melee and new weapons... I can't give you an answer for that one. I don't know how the melee programming was done, but I know that putting new weapons in would be very easy. I can't rationalize or make an excuse for that.

 

And perhaps you'll take this as fanboyism, I really don't know. My legitimization of L4D2 is based around the time I spent with L4D1. My excitement over the game (versus just thinking, "oh, it's the new one. I guess I'll get it,") was actually playing it and seeing all the changes the team made to make it a better overall game. Your mileage may vary.