[Zombie Survival] 09/01/2015 Update Balancing Suggestions

[->SK<-]

Hi all, and thanks for being so patient as we eagerly show off the hard labours that the coding department has worked on over the last few months! With that being said, there may be problems that may not have cropped up during internal testing that may rear its head when pushed to the LIVE server. While we take every precaution and try to balance things as much as possible, there are things we overlook, underestimate or overestimate. That's where you the public can help us

 

NOTE : Please do not put map bug reports here. If you have a bug on a map go here to report it. If you want to report a bug that has come in as part of the new update go here.

 

If you feel that we may have balanced something incorrectly, please let us know by using the form below :

 

Description of imbalance :

 

Why do you think this is not balanced? :

 

Suggestion as to how you think it could be rebalanced fairly :

 

Thanks for your help, and as always enjoy the update!

 

-SKay

[Awesome dude]

Exploits:

 

1. Blaster Exploit (Hold R + Left Click Spam) = Faster shots with reload is pretty fast than normal.

2. Chem still redeem exploit when you have .......... (i can't tell how to do it) and human did kill you will become be a redeem.

 

Suggestions:

1. Add a M60 weapons that one i send a files.

2. Change grim wave from 6 to 5 or 4 that would be good.

3. Rebalance a XM1014 because an ender automatic shotgun(Fast shot, most DPM and reload) it's better than XM1014.

4. When you're medic would show the characters health but this update isn't show the health.

[Lumpymayo]

Increase turret damage.

Decrease the cost of Smg ammo

Decrease the cost of pistol ammo

Increase the HP of Chem zombies so they cannot be killed from a single crossbow bolt

Increase the cost of the impaler

Increase how fast an object is thrown if a normal zombie hits it

Increase the jumping height of the bonemesh

[Matt B]

-remove slowness for humans in water for obj maps

Edited September 2, 2015 by IMI4tth3w

[Trazix]

 

- increased radius the jihad, put 150points but the same radius as before

- review weapon unlocked

 

buy a grim wave 6 is completely useless, in 5min it's over. same for crossbow or other weapon. at wave 2 it may have 40 zombie is faster to need buy a big gun

 

Back as before all unlock wave 3

Edited September 2, 2015 by Trazix

[Eduardo]

Get rid of the tier thing system, buying boom sticks and crossbows on wave 5 is absolutely senseless you just made it for points. Bring old system back, the new one is just awful.

I prefer having fun since wave 3

[TheAtrocity]

"Fair" individually is just wrong lol. Humans are always going to have the upper hand individually.

 

Take a poison zombie and a human with a BLASTER shotgun and the human easily gets the home game. However, with the population as it is and how the ZS system works within our server, fact is that zombies (EVEN with 10+ afk) are overpowered to a high degree. This should be obvious but ok.

 

Can we like, help the monotonous zombie gameplay or just continuously debuff the right things and buff the wrong things and change stuff for humans? Rip zombie lyf.

 

Weapon tiers have potential but from what I see this was the wrong way to go about it. Yes, humans have pointsaving, Yes they can buy 40 boomsticks. Why not address that?

 

Simply, the debuffs for humans are going to make the server even more "fair" towards zombies. Props have limited hp. Most is usually a door with 1,100. It's not intended for a population of 70 people. I've seen 40 zombies obliterate 11 doors in just 2 minutes. Many times. Too many times. lol.

Edited September 2, 2015 by TheAtrocity

[Gewehrwolf]

You've seen my post already , You know what I think

[Lemming]

The tier system was a good idea on paper but when in use is not very fun and hard to make your points back with high tier weapons.

[futo]

Just got on the server and played for a while, here's a little thought.

 

 

I noticed when a certain percentage of humans have died, the weapon tier system is overridden and human can immediately buy stronger guns for their protection against the increasing amount of zombies.

 

However unlocking the weapon does not really encourage people to actually spend their hard-earned points for the team. It is because high tier guns are expensive and they are rarely purchased with out the 20% off; hence sitting there and die is likely the more profitable option as those weapons tend to take multiple rounds to pay for themselves. (At least that was what I did today.)

 

And so I suggest a discount on ONE purchase when those death % are trigger, or simply re-balance the cost for expensive weapon.

 

 

I'll come back and write more when I have some more thoughts.

[Lumpymayo]

Jihad blast radius got nerfed. Please increase the radius back to it's original size. Getting massive kills with the jihad is one of the most fun things to do in this game and the blast radius got nerfed into the ground so badly that you cannot kill an entire room of zombies. Now the blast radius is like 2m in length when it used to be like 15m. I know the price got reduced but nerfing the blast radius took the fun out of this weapon.

 

Also the kill icon for the jihad is bugged. It shows as a detonation pack instead of the timer icon.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Lumpymayo

[The Gaming Limit]

This has to be removed immediately. You are saying that all people have to wait till wave 6 to get a laser boomstick at 240 points that will be unprofitable the weapon unlocks are certain death also on a low server population how on earth can you defend afks or Cade if you have hardly any weapons

[Old Bill]

This has to be removed immediately. You are saying that all people have to wait till wave 6 to get a laser boomstick at 240 points that will be unprofitable the weapon unlocks are certain death also on a low server population how on earth can you defend afks or Cade if you have hardly any weapons/

 

+1

 

Boomsticks should unlock at wave 3 like the earlier versions

[ForrestMarkX]

This has to be removed immediately. You are saying that all people have to wait till wave 6 to get a laser boomstick at 240 points that will be unprofitable the weapon unlocks are certain death also on a low server population how on earth can you defend afks or Cade if you have hardly any weapons

 

Using tier 5 weapons in wave 5 or 6 gives almost double to triple points per kill same with tier 6 on wave 6, weapons also unlock with infliction rates

Edited September 2, 2015 by ForrestMarkX

[Dreamy]

Problem with tier system is survivability, non profit. It is designed to make you profit even at wave 5 or 6, but, you have to reach said waves. So far it seems a little bit harder to survive past wave 4.

[->SK<-]

A few updates were pushed overnight with the following fixes and balances. Fixes in bold, balancing in italics.

 

ForrestMarkX: Attempted balance for chem zombie, the more chems there are on field then the less damage they do

ForrestMarkX: Fixed TargetID system to properly display weapons and health

ForrestMarkX: Fixed Jihad doing nothing

ForrestMarkX: Weapon tier 4 is now unlocked on 20% infliction

ForrestMarkX: All weapons unlocked from infliction get a discount

ForrestMarkX: Fixed bug with blaster shotgun

ForrestMarkX: Fixed Spectators being forced to zombies on round restart

ForrestMarkX: Laser Boomstick is now only craftable with a car battery and boomstick

ForrestMarkX: Fixed weapons not getting unlocked on intermission in Obj map

ForrestMarkX: Fixed water system on obj maps

ForrestMarkX: Adjusted points received when getting them from a tier 5 or 6 weapon on wave 5 and 6

ForrestMarkX: Nerfed Windigo to have a slower attack speed and run speed

ForrestMarkX: Fixed crows and spectators colliding with players

ForrestMarkX: Fixed humans going to spectator and then to zombie getting their kills identified as brains eaten

[Matt B]

-bring back unlimited jihad if human survives all waves. that should be part of the benefit for winning a map.

[Zackkkkk]

we should be able to buy laser boomsticks sooner. (like wave 3 or 4 at least)

[Gewehrwolf]

ATTENTION ALL AUTIST

 

Everything about the update is good and all, except for this tumor of an improvement

 

A lot of people aren't happy that you have to buy all of the good weapons on WAVE FUCKING 5.

Here's why

 

The zombies are already buffed to take down most good cades. And we NEED powerful weapons to clear them out before they rape the cade.

 

People don't buy these weapons to make points, they buy it because it's fun killing stuff with them. The boomstick and impaler are HG personal favorites, and your just going to yank that away until wave 5

 

Making it to wave 5 is RARE. We all usually die before then. With the zombies not being killed fast enough, we now got even LOWER chance of making it to wave 5

 

Nothing was wrong with buying boomsticks and impalers on wave 3. The zombies still have the upperhand, especially after this update with the new bosses and shit. What led you to this decision?

 

This post is a request from multiple players, it's not just me

 

 

I got division staff on my side. How do you like that? ̿' ̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(◕_◕)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿

 

tHIS is a message from me, and all impaler users, boomstickers, and reapers. We have come to say to get rid of this. Seriously

 

And no "point doubling" or whatever is going to make us happy.

 

If it's not too much trouble, at LEAST lower it to wave 4. Hell, anything but wave God damn 5

Edited September 3, 2015 by Soldier of 4chan

[TheAtrocity]

ATTENTION ALL AUTIST

 

Everything about the update is good and all, except for this tumor of an improvement

 

A lot of people aren't happy that you have to buy all of the good weapons on WAVE FUCKING 5.

Here's why

 

The zombies are already buffed to take down most good cades. And we NEED powerful weapons to clear them out before they rape the cade.

 

People don't buy these weapons to make points, they buy it because it's fun killing stuff with them. The boomstick and impaler are HG personal favorites, and your just going to yank that away until wave 5

 

Making it to wave 5 is RARE. We all usually die before then. With the zombies not being killed fast enough, we now got even LOWER chance of making it to wave 5

 

Nothing was wrong with buying boomsticks and impalers on wave 3. The zombies still have the upperhand, especially after this update with the new bosses and shit. What led you to this decision?

 

This post is a request from multiple players, it's not just me

 

 

I got division staff on my side. How do you like that? ̿' ̿'\̵͇̿̿\з=(◕_◕)=ε/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿ ̿

 

tHIS is a message from me, and all impaler users, boomstickers, and reapers. We have come to say to get rid of this. Seriously

 

And no "point doubling" or whatever is going to make us happy.

 

If it's not too much trouble, at LEAST lower it to wave 4. Hell, anything but wave God damn 5

 

Basically lol boomsticks which were intended for outside cade usage is being restricted to inside cade which makes it useless. I mean yeah hell you can make profit off wave 5 but it seems contradictory to have made a gun with a useful trait and major weakness obsolete. Even at wave 4, it's still fairly useless but I'll take it lol. It's not that much of an issue to be fairly honest, profits are quite a possibility if not fairly easy to make EVEN with a boomstick, purchased at full price on wave 5.

[DaSniperBietch]

Suggestions:

 

-Make turrets Uncollidable with players:

It's been very annoying to shoot through a cade and suddenly you get pushed from your shooting spot because of the turret, turrets stuck players sometimes.

 

-Purchase all weapons in wave 2 intermision (like before)

I think this is being fixed, but well.. just a reminder. We don't buy the 'OP' weapons to earn lots of points, we use them because it's fun to blast zombies with those weapons, and at the end humans often lose.

 

-Award for winner humans

Some people liked my idea to earn 100 points if you win a match as human, or at least being able to sell your weapons after wave 6 (which that means winning of course)

 

-Hunter rifle reloading time

The new HR is awesome, but the reloading time is absolutely ridiculous. Also the left arm looks culled with the new animations.

 

-Anticrash system

I know if you leave the game and join back you'll join as zombie, just to avoid those classic noobs that rejoin when zombies killed them, just to be humans again. But sometimes gmod crashes unexpctedly and is annoying to join back and being a zombie, even when wave 1 is not starting. Also, sometimes you buy an expensive weapons and seconds later you crash, so your 200 spent points are gone, it would be good to neutralize your score to 0 if gmod crashes and your earned points are negative.

 

-Antiprop kill system

Same with the anticrash system, props can act randomly and kill you by no reason, and that is just pretty annoying. Im not saying to improve the physics, just to make a system to redeem humans when they get prop killed unfairly (not by shade of course)

 

-Remove bungalows

-Remove headcrab canyon <- wtf with that map seriously

-Bring back the original jihad damage radius, Idc if that means increasing jihad price, but please make it under 150 and bring back the original radius.

 

-Nerf zombie legs

I don't know if this update nerfed the legs but god damn, they're so OP. You can't even kill them instantly when the zombie is splitted, you have to wait like 2-3 seconds to kill them. HP should be 50 or 75

[Dreamy]

Even if the the humans are on wave 6 and still in a cade when it unlocks, you will only be using it for 1 wave. That's no fun at all. Most people don't even care if they get more points on that last wave. This game is not about how many points you can make, it's about the fun you can have. I would much rather make no points at all but have FUN than being a massive point whore, but not having fun at all. No one benefits from pointwhoring except for the purchasing of weapons, although this would be useless really if these weapons are unlocked when the humans are almost dead.

 

This is THE ultimate argument against said system. Buying a gun at wave 6 means fun for 4 minutes only. It is profitable, but not fun.

FUN > PROFIT

[Matt B]

sure there are a couple of those with ridiculous amount of points saved. i've been playing for 3 years and only on 3 occasions have i gone over 10k points saved in that entire span. i only keep enough points to have some fun.

 

as dreamy said it,

 

FUN > PROFIT

[->SK<-]

Personally, I only get the boomstick when I want to run around and have fun using it (It's basically a gun not designed for cades, so I agree with atrocity on that one). The laser boomstick is the same as the normal boom, just more powerful. These guns should not be restricted to be used only in cades, that makes it pointless to buy. I know you are going to argue that tier weapons 5 and 6 are unlocked when 60% and 80% of the humans die, but by then, the entire human team will have already been pushed back to cade, making it impossible to find usefulness for the boomsticks. The only thing that this tier system is "good" for is for weapons such as the impaler or grim reaper. The impaler will be unlocked when more than half the team is already dead. This makes it more promising for points, but maybe for a wave and a half, when the cade inevitably falls. The Grim Reaper will be able to be used after 80% of the humans have died. That makes the guns useless because that would mean someone who just purchased a grim (for about 500 points including ammo) is in a cade on the verge of falling, because it would be 56 Zombies vs. 12 Humans. It's not even worth buying a grim when there is 56 zombies attacking your cade that is on its last few props. Even if the the humans are on wave 6 and still in a cade when it unlocks, you will only be using it for 1 wave. That's no fun at all. Most people don't even care if they get more points on that last wave. This game is not about how many points you can make, it's about the fun you can have. I would much rather make no points at all but have FUN than being a massive point whore, but not having fun at all. No one benefits from pointwhoring except for the purchasing of weapons, although this would be useless really if these weapons are unlocked when the humans are almost dead.

Bottom line, unless this tier system is tweaked or edited, I would love to see the immediate removal of this system, and I believe most of us will want that as well.

 

This is just a caveat of mine, could you please make the text the same colour? And size? Pretty please?

 

Like I want to be able to read these suggestions, but it's hard when they're all over the place in terms of size and colour. You can demonstrate your point normally WITHOUT Having to resort to THIS.

 

 

Now onto the actual official response...

 

I thank the feedback thus far on what you people find is problematic with regards to balancing in the tier system. The majority of the feedback has been about the tier system and what you guys thought we did right/wrong with it. While an element of this disappointment with the tier system is just looking for profit, the vast majority of you have made the same, and very valid argument : Fun. Ask, you shall receive. I have decided that this is the first thing to go under the re-balance scope (not including hot-fixes we did, those don't count. This is a MAJOR re-balance, not a small one.) and will be putting up something for it very soon for you to leave feedback on.

 

My initial plan is to rejig it to be the following :

 

1. Less linear.

 

Right now it is very linear: starting off by unlocking one class of weaponry i.e pistols on round 1, SMG's on round 2 and so on. What I plan on introducing is something a little

 

2. Much more accessible to fun.

 

Goofy weapons are hard to get right in this system, but I'm hoping I can get something sorted that all sides on the fence are content with and is fair. But NOT taking away the fun.

 

3. Still fair for zombies.

 

With regard to the last update, the zombies got a huge upgrade in their arsenal crate (heh geddit) and can call upon a much wider variety of classes, bosses and tactics. Humans not so much. Hopefully by rebalancing the tier system we can hopefully nail something down that gives humans a fighting chance while still maintaining good zombie chances.

 

Obviously, the number two pointer is the biggest priority of the list there, but we will cross the bridge with the communities help

 

As a reminder : Major rebalances like this will take time, and ultimately leadership (not just myself) will have final say on what's what. But obviously we will take in what you suggest and mould it into a system that works to help you have FUN.

 

- SKay

[futo]

Indeed the tier system does take away fun from a lot of veterans out here as strong weapons cannot be obtained soon enough.

 

However there's a concern I would like to point out: what happen if zombies are getting over-boomsticked? (even though boomstick party is rather rare I know)

 

One other significant feature with the tier system is, I believe, decrease population loss. Not many love to be zombie, and when they are initial zombie getting over-killed, they leave. I bet many have seen 50 human vs 2 zombies over here, forcing some hg members to suicide to get the game to continue.

 

 

Of course taking away the fun still suck (I can't get my good o stalker anymore in wave 2 intermission rip) and the tier system is killing the already-weak human team as seen in some recent games.

 

So here is my suggestion: a dynamic price system. It is as simple as it sound, high tier weapon cost more in early game and decrease with wave and infliction progression. I believe that will still support the idea of balance with tier system, by discouraging "op" weapons in early round with increased cost; while if Mr. veterans REALLY DAMN WANT DAT BOOMSTICK they have the option to pay up for it.

 

Edit: Maybe having weapon count limit like some tf2 server having class count restriction will work too, like wave one only 3 boomsticks can be purchased, wave two 3 more can be purchased, until the weapon is formally unlocked by wave or infliction.

Edited September 3, 2015 by futo