Cratewhore

[TheAtrocity]

Hey everybody. It's time for another round of shitposting slamposting.

 

Now as you all know, it's becoming painfully apparent that the server is now constantly plagued by a special type of disease, seemingly from the start of a few individuals (some are well known, like that person who has 5000 in their name yeah?). Take those vaccines! I think it's called....cratewhore? Now I assume the definition is roughly something akin to:

 

"The idea of placing one's arsenal crate or resupply box in such a position in a desirable cading area such that it denies other people, especially the cader, of placing theirs in the optimal spot. It is often done before the cader has started or has assembled props and they tend to be bad at ZS. All mentions of helping the team, from actually cading to buying a gun and defending are gone and they cry a lot if they do not get their "fair share" of the points. They gloat when they earn massive profits and complain about how it is other people's fault that they could not perform what they wanted to do, which is to place their arsenal or resupply in the desirable position(s)."

 

In order to alleviate both the people who keep complaining about people complaining on forums (although complaints usually give reason and point to a cause for such complaint and suggestions that follow) as well as those of us honest and hardworking folks over in the HG ZS server, I propose a reduction in point commission given to the owner of said crate from 7% to 3%. Resupplies are fine, being so big and cannot give the owner a massive amount of points.

 

Now I've done le math and this seems to appease everyone, as long as they keep a reasonable head and/or have had a doctor give them something for their pointwhore disease. We should be seeing less 617/+617 on wave 5 or 6 and more 417/+140. The reduction (slightly more than half) lowers the points gained from larger purchases (300 grim @ 7% yields 21 while 300 grim @ 3% yields 9) but should still retain the 1 point per ammo box purchased. People with the disease will realize that it is probably better to buy a gun and shoot.

 

I've arrived at the reduction arbitrarily and thus adjustable but yes, it seems a reasonable one to me. I sure do hope something happens.....

Edited October 7, 2015 by Edgy

[->SK<-]

I would like to see something like this, and it being worth more worth points so its a legitimate choice of "Am I going to shoot now or support the cause"

 

Honestly no need to label it as a disease, rather just normal pointwhoring behavior.

[TheAtrocity]

But it is a disease.

 

I don't think more worth would help, like a cader NEEDS a hammer (45) and crate (50), no other way to go abouts. Sure, we could hurt ourselves for more worth but that's just endangering the cader

[->SK<-]

But it is a disease.

I don't think more worth would help, like a cader NEEDS a hammer (45) and crate (50), no other way to go abouts. Sure, we could hurt ourselves for more worth but that's just endangering the cader

 

It realistically should be one or the other. There's no risk involved, throw up a cade somewhere, hope to god no one is derping with your props and just smash a crate down and there you are.

 

With an increased worth cost for an arsenal, someone will either be a distinct cader or crater at least for the first round and can use the points they earn to get the item they are missing during intermission.

 

Someone should be viable, but not enough to basically be a one man van

[TheAtrocity]

I see your point, but cades have always been a 1 man van, and should be. Only you the cader really knows what you're doing. Repairing cades doesn't give much compared to traditional gunning. A cader would need to have some way of being dedicated to the task (repairing, subsituting, etc) and make a decent amount of points to add to repairing. I see this as the best of both worlds.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Edgy

[Dukakis]

i get tired of crate whores,especially when i go to take an actual good spot and all of a sudden they place their arsenal or resupply and claim that spot. They saw i was going to use that spot, so they decide to troll and steal it before i can claim it. Also hate when some people have too many arsenal and/or resupplies and there is no way to get points.

[KitBallard]

I didn't know that everyone hates pointwhores out of sudden even if they are whores themselves. Being a pointwhore is more acceptable than being fully autistic but back to topic.

 

Even if we reduce it from 7% to 3% it wouldn't change that much + if we would do that there won't be a reason to have an Arsenal Crate and everybody knows the feeling, about buying a weapon without having a Crate. All Players are literally focused on making profit or loosing some, which is fun. The point is, changing the outcome to 3 than 7 might kill ''Cratewhoring/Pointwhoring'' but we also will loose some of the Population besides that, what if there is a new guy screaming for ''Please buy on my Crate'', (honestly everybody has done it at least 10 times) he can't do anything with 15 points in the first wave and yes ''But every ammo purchase gives +1 points huurdurr'' then we will say 30, if that guy hasn't found a good spot. He would literally make no profit at all, and he also would loose interest in buying/spawning a crate again, cause till then he probably spend his points for his own weapon and ammunition and then? Game over cause its already wave 3 on zs_storm.

Edited October 12, 2015 by KitBallard

[TheAtrocity]

Fun Fact: Population won't die.

 

That aside, this will not kill off cratewhores, but will discourage them. Let's give an example out. Here's a simple graph I made.

 

The blue function is given as 0.03x <(this is a linear line, which gives you point yield depending on purchase size.)

x is purchase point and y is point yield to user. This is rounded to the nearest whole number.

POINT: (300,9)

 

The red function is given as 0.07x

POINT: (300, 21)

 

 

 

As you can explore for yourself, you will find that there is quite a massive point difference between 0.07x and 0.03x.

Here's another idea to throw in.

ALSO: Keep in mine this is a simple linear graph intended for singular purchases.

 

In the event of a "grim party" in which we can say 30 grims are purchased from a single crate, we can calculate the yield differences using this graph.

 

With intermission

Grim @ 240 (80% of 300)

@0.07x we see a yield of +480

@0.03x we see a yield of +210

 

Without intermission

Grim @ 300

@0.07x = +630

@0.03x = +270

 

As you can see, there is a massive point difference from the 2 functions.

 

If we factor in the countless +1 ammo box purchases, I can easily see a profit on top of those values, from the +200's. Remember, even with 5 arsenals about, only the best placed crate will garner the majority of the consumer attention. A population of 30 human will need to buy a few boxes every round. Take half away because of afk's and whatnot. 15 points/human/purchase x ~4 (arbitrary number of purchases, very low on purpose) x 3 (again arbitrary wave count since most dont buy waves 1-2, and most purchases are around 4-6) gives you +120. In reality, the profits from a 70+ population are going to be much higher.

 

Even without the party, there will be several top tier gun purchases and many more mid-tier purchases. The main point of the nerf is to (to reiterate) discourage cratewhoring and promote defense. It should be more profitable or at least as profitable to fire a gun.

 

So, in conclusion, the user will not "literally make no profit at all" and will still make a jungle of points.

 

I see your point, but cades have always been a 1 man van, and should be. Only you the cader really knows what you're doing. Repairing cades doesn't give much compared to traditional gunning. A cader would need to have some way of being dedicated to the task (repairing, subsituting, etc) and make a decent amount of points to add to repairing. I see this as the best of both worlds.

 

EDIT: I mixed the colors up, fixed.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Edgy

[Dreamy]

Fun Fact: Population won't die.

 

That aside, this will not kill off cratewhores, but will discourage them. Let's give an example out. Here's a simple graph I made.

 

The blue function is given as 0.03x <(this is a linear line, which gives you point yield depending on purchase size.)

x is purchase point and y is point yield to user. This is rounded to the nearest whole number.

POINT: (300,9)

 

The red function is given as 0.07x

POINT: (300, 21)

 

 

 

As you can explore for yourself, you will find that there is quite a massive point difference between 0.07x and 0.03x.

Here's another idea to throw in.

ALSO: Keep in mine this is a simple linear graph intended for singular purchases.

 

In the event of a "grim party" in which we can say 30 grims are purchased from a single crate, we can calculate the yield differences using this graph.

 

With intermission

Grim @ 240 (80% of 300)

@0.07x we see a yield of +480

@0.03x we see a yield of +210

 

Without intermission

Grim @ 300

@0.07x = +630

@0.03x = +270

 

As you can see, there is a massive point difference from the 2 functions.

 

If we factor in the countless +1 ammo box purchases, I can easily see a profit on top of those values, from the +200's. Remember, even with 5 arsenals about, only the best placed crate will garner the majority of the consumer attention. A population of 30 human will need to buy a few boxes every round. Take half away because of afk's and whatnot. 15 points/human/purchase x ~4 (arbitrary number of purchases, very low on purpose) x 3 (again arbitrary wave count since most dont buy waves 1-2, and most purchases are around 4-6) gives you +120. In reality, the profits from a 70+ population are going to be much higher.

 

Even without the party, there will be several top tier gun purchases and many more mid-tier purchases. The main point of the nerf is to (to reiterate) discourage cratewhoring and promote defense. It should be more profitable or at least as profitable to fire a gun.

 

So, in conclusion, the user will not "literally make no profit at all" and will still make a jungle of points.

 

 

 

EDIT: I mixed the colors up, fixed.

 

NERD DETECTED

 

That being said, the main problem is having 200 arsenal crates all over the place making it so that you can't even cade or that you can't finish the cade or make a backup cade. As a cader, it bothers me a lot. I don't think it has to do with being a pointwhore but with being really sucky and leeching out of the good players. With this I mean that the only way they can get points (WAIT, the whole point of the game mode is to survive not to get points!!!!!) is to place an arsenal crate in a cade they are not making, then sit and get the points.

 

I like both Atrocity's and SKay's ideas.

[Matt B]

i don't think you guys are looking at this from any other direction other than the inside of a dark hole.

 

what about objective maps? (which are played A LOT as we all know)

 

this is where the weapon parties are most prevalent, and requires the "crate whore" to learn the maps and where to place their crate, otherwise they won't make squat.

 

nerfing the "point whoring" of the arsenal crate won't do shit. look at resupplies they're just whored. are we gonna nerf those too?

 

 

any time i cade, i NEVER get a crate. and i can make well over +200 just repairing if the cade makes it all 6 rounds. usually more than that. and thats without a crate.

 

i'm sorry but i just disagree entirely with this.

[Dreamy]

i don't think you guys are looking at this from any other direction other than the inside of a dark hole.

 

what about objective maps? (which are played A LOT as we all know)

 

this is where the weapon parties are most prevalent, and requires the "crate whore" to learn the maps and where to place their crate, otherwise they won't make squat.

 

nerfing the "point whoring" of the arsenal crate won't do shit. look at resupplies they're just whored. are we gonna nerf those too?

 

 

any time i cade, i NEVER get a crate. and i can make well over +200 just repairing if the cade makes it all 6 rounds. usually more than that. and thats without a crate.

 

i'm sorry but i just disagree entirely with this.

 

Can make an exception for objectives. Every time I cade I get either an arsenal or a junkpack (I sincerely prefer a junkpack cuz it's fun!!!). And I really wouldn't mind if I don't get as many points as I do get right now... SO, I'm talking as a crate whore and not only as a cader. I think that letting the cader have the arsenal spot is a way of appreciating all the effort invested on building up the cade. I don't know, I see it that way.

[TheAtrocity]

i don't think you guys are looking at this from any other direction other than the inside of a dark hole.

 

what about objective maps? (which are played A LOT as we all know)

 

this is where the weapon parties are most prevalent, and requires the "crate whore" to learn the maps and where to place their crate, otherwise they won't make squat.

 

nerfing the "point whoring" of the arsenal crate won't do shit. look at resupplies they're just whored. are we gonna nerf those too?

 

 

any time i cade, i NEVER get a crate. and i can make well over +200 just repairing if the cade makes it all 6 rounds. usually more than that. and thats without a crate.

 

i'm sorry but i just disagree entirely with this.

 

Woah woah woah edgy

 

Hold up, the whole entire point of the topic was to 1) decrease cratewhores and 2) promote defense

 

If they "don't make squat", they'll have to revert to buying a gun and shooting, which will yield them the profit they thus desire.

 

Also, the topic did not focus (and the entire point was not) around protecting caders and letting them place their arsenal crate.

 

Might I also add to my earlier statement that, it's dead simple where to figure out where and when to place an arsenal crate. Enervation, Evac, Vertigo, Pharmacy all are the most played objective maps and they ALL have the appropriate stop points where humans must defend. I admit: under this plan, it will be harder to place crates. However, I think this is the best. Everyone wants instant gratification but that's just inhibiting us to grow as a server and community. In the long run, I see people smartening up and learning where and when to place their arsenals. Not a problem. Look at Doomsday June 2014. we have a completely new population and through thick and thin, they've learned a lot and have performed above expectations.

 

I find it extremely frustrating that you think we look at this area from a dark hole, when we have basically thoroughly laid out the plan, foundation with reasons and various situations in which the plan would be beneficial while you have barely given yours and declare this topic obsolete. So while allowing caders to place their arsenals is courtesy and (admittedly, what I actually like), the entire topic (reiterate) is focused on the people who cratewhore. Resupplies have not been addressed yet, and I feel like resupplies are less of an issue than arsenal crates although I am now thinking about resupplies.I rather think your statement was very hypocritical.

 

I've also said to perhaps try it out, to no avail.

 

>Discussed on TS and maybe even a hybrid of some sort:

raising worth for arsenals as well as some form of crate commission nerf? I'm up to exploring ideas and I want to see the best possible system that works in the long run bear fruit.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Edgy

[thebong1]

so your solution to people trying to save points is make it harder for them to save points.... interesting...

well i see your algebra and raise you logic. when people have less points they want to save points, so they will not buy a gun. chances are this will actualy increase the amount of people who do it as well as the amount of time they will do it. so this will make it worse.

the problem is less about points as it is about them making profit while being AFK.

Edited October 13, 2015 by thebong1

[Kevinyock]

I support atrocity idea of just lowering the commission. It should discourage some of the Cratewhoring. My suggestion is to make the other options (repairing cades/shooting) more appealing/profitable. If you do something like raising the worth of the Arsenal crate to like 75 then it hurt the people who make a solo cade and place their arsenal because it already hard for caders who sacrafice 30 hp to get the buff trait. Raising the worth would just harm the cader because some people just buy the arsenal,place it then afk.

[TheAtrocity]

so your solution to people trying to save points is make it harder for them to save points.... interesting...

well i see your algebra and raise you logic. when people have less points they want to save points, so they will not buy a gun. chances are this will actualy increase the amount of people who do it as well as the amount of time they will do it. so this will make it worse.

the problem is less about points as it is about them making profit while being AFK.

 

Except they aren't saving points. At least not in the sense of "saving".

 

Look, there is absolutely no reason to lose points unless you're going above and beyond the average player.

You need to aim with the gun, and shoot. Be more proactive. This promotes learning and in the end, they become a better player overall. You don't need to buy an Impaler to make profit. An Akbar or similar tiered weapon will easily do.

 

Also, in regards to crates, only 1 person can technically "save points" per cade. Players will always purchase from the most conveniently placed crate, no matter what. In a cade with 1 front and 1 backup, only 2 people will actually benefit at all. The rest don't "make back their points".

 

We need to stop catering to the bad players. We have a responsibility to help others improve. Someone's going to ask how x has so many points. Y will answer buying guns (specified according to a situation) instead of crate whoring. We need to evolve and quit with instant gratification. It's bad in the long run.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Edgy

[Matt B]

so your solution to people trying to save points is make it harder for them to save points.... interesting...

well i see your algebra and raise you logic. when people have less points they want to save points, so they will not buy a gun. chances are this will actualy increase the amount of people who do it as well as the amount of time they will do it. so this will make it worse.

the problem is less about points as it is about them making profit while being AFK.

 

this is it right here.

 

i can almost guarantee that lowering the points made from crates will not make more people buy guns, only make it more difficult to do so. afk crate whores will most certainly still exist. its just part of the style of the server. only way to get rid of that is to get rid of point saving, which isn't going to happen.

 

If you want people to shoot more, make shooting more profitable. Right now, no one really buys shit until wave 5 because profit is shit rounds 1-4 unless you go pistol. Then in that case you aren't really holding off much and the cade will be gone (unless its an "OP" map with multiple layers). I've tried to get mid tier weapons sometimes but if there's a decent population and a decent amount of zombies, then cade will be gone long before you make profit off an akbar or ender.

[Lumpymayo]

Please increase the minimum distance between arsneal crate and resupply crates. This will make these positions more competitive and we will have less crates placed in shitty locations which block caders. Also increase the price of the arsenal crate to 60 points so people cannot easily double down on a hammer/medkit + arsenal worth menu combo. These 2 very small changes in my opinion will result is much fewer crates being placed down. It does not address the person with the crate not doing anything but it is a step in the right direction.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Lumpymayo

[TheAtrocity]

So increasing distance ensures those with beefier computers solidify their position as the crate owner?

 

LOL rip, so you've basically denied people of their points, except for the 3 people with the best computers and connections, which to my understanding was the major counterargument against my plan.

 

Also, in response to matthew's claim, it's not that people are "saving points" so much as person. Like I said, only 2 or 3 people benefit at all from placed crates. We all know MANY people are sometimes in a deficit spending, not 3.

 

Most of the top point earners are also top profiters, mainly from buying a gun and shooting, say 800/+300. Which seems fair. Not a crate afk who has 600-1000/+600-1000.

 

These people rarely place arsenal crates.

[Northground]

You could make so that a person cant make more then a maximum amount of Points from crates a day.

[Lumpymayo]

Maybe disable the ability to get both a resupply and an arsenal from the worth menu at the same time. It seems like the people who get both are the worst offenders when it comes to placing the crates down and not providing any use to the team. The issue is compounded because they have to purchase a return from the worth menu to be able to afford this which causes them to be even less likely to provide help to the team. Most likely they place both crates in a cade and go afk.

 

Maybe remove the "banned for life" return because when people buy it they usually plan on not helping the team and that play style shouldn't be rewarded.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Lumpymayo

[TheAtrocity]

Maybe disable the ability to get both a resupply and an arsenal from the worth menu at the same time. It seems like the people who get both are the worst offenders when it comes to placing the crates down and not providing any use to the team. The issue is compounded because they have to purchase a return from the worth menu to be able to afford this which causes them to be even less likely to provide help to the team. Most likely they place both crates in a cade and go afk.

 

Maybe remove the "banned for life" return because when people buy it they usually plan on not helping the team and that play style shouldn't be rewarded.

Please.

Just,

please. This is good too!

[TheAtrocity]

It just doesn't make sense for a person to afk with a crate (and/or resupply) and earn more points in profit than the top earners in defense. I find that logic completely backwards. There should be no reason as to why that happens. People have earned their points back easily enough before this became a problem. I do not see why anything should change.

[Old Bill]

Maybe disable the ability to get both a resupply and an arsenal from the worth menu at the same time. It seems like the people who get both are the worst offenders when it comes to placing the crates down and not providing any use to the team. The issue is compounded because they have to purchase a return from the worth menu to be able to afford this which causes them to be even less likely to provide help to the team. Most likely they place both crates in a cade and go afk.

 

Maybe remove the "banned for life" return because when people buy it they usually plan on not helping the team and that play style shouldn't be rewarded.

 

Though i found this topic silly and i didn't like you (Lumpymayo) that much but this changed my mind, that's very smart, plz plz plz plz (plz * 100)

do this :v

[XxwonderbredxX]

wtf is this? All I saw is hella words and graphs. is this math class?

[Harle]

Maybe disable the ability to get both a resupply and an arsenal from the worth menu at the same time. It seems like the people who get both are the worst offenders when it comes to placing the crates down and not providing any use to the team. The issue is compounded because they have to purchase a return from the worth menu to be able to afford this which causes them to be even less likely to provide help to the team. Most likely they place both crates in a cade and go afk.

 

Maybe remove the "banned for life" return because when people buy it they usually plan on not helping the team and that play style shouldn't be rewarded.

 

Great idea.

 

Usually people would just AFK after placing their arsenal and ressuply crate, getting a decent amount of points each map depending on the placement. (300-400 on average)

 

Disabling the ability of obtaining both an arsenal and ressuply crate would not only decrease the amount of "crate whores" but as well as encourage people to actually do other things (defending the caders etc) rather than just sitting around, being AFK with the banned for life trait.

 

I like the idea which you suggested of increasing the minimum distance between arsenal and ressuply crates. This would help caders by a substantial amount. Crates getting in the way and asking the owners to remove them or getting 4 people to pack it is generally just a waste of time and a problem which happens quite frequently.

 

The idea of increasing the worth menu points for these items could potentially change the mindset of many but I can see how that would cause some issues on the server so I would recommend just leaving it the way it is.

 

With all of that being said,

 

 

RIP COSMIC.