[investigating] First Cell and Kitchen Teleport and Other Issues

[Nipple]

To start this off, we all (Hopefully) have noticed the new first cell/kitchen teleports into armory teleport you halfway up the ladder in the armory vents instead of in the corner of armory. Im assuming this was done to prevent armory camping and pretty much instant death within the first 15seconds of the round.

 

Now we know CTS cannot be in armory vents or knife arena vents unless they are 90% sure there are rebellers in, or heading to the vent area. (example, t's run shot4shot, so ct goes into armory then into vents.) We know cts cannot in vents waiting for last guard or standing there forever waiting for a rebeller (when they dont know someone is there yet).

 

Recently in the server(the past month or so), there have been an insane amount of derp cts baiting and just failing at everything. Gunplanting has gotten out of control and all the good players play on T now because of how easy it is to rebel.

 

This presents a big problem (or at least a problem if not big). At round start usually at least 2 t's spawn in first cell (sometimes 1 if server is low, sometimes 3+ with perks and !pd). Smart t's will realize that since CT's cannot enter, watch , or camp vents they can enter the vents at round start, and head into knife arena vents and camp for 30seconds then head to armory (where cts cant be standing anymore) and just rebel, open up knife arena vents, going s4s.. ect. With rebelling ALREADY easy as hell, and added derp cts, you're guaranteeing at least 2 t's with assault rifles ( or maybe awps) every round within 30seconds.

 

Any mindful CT can see this happening and will try to look down in vents and wait for teleports or will run down in vents expecting these t's to come. And they are only trying to help the lead/day by preventing rebellers. You can even cause derps to sit in vents the whole round. Basically what i have done is wait the 15seconds you're allowed to be in armory at round start and just look down in the vents and see if i can pick off a T, then just leave once you cant be in there anymore. But i have seen from some over-zealous tlist happy admins that you can't do this either.

 

The rebelling in jailbreak is already insanely too easy and its actually been much harder to play CT these days (even with all the bonuses and the CT sided map). This has really gotten out of hand and the CTS have been under way too much scrutiny and are chained with too many restrictions. It's supposed to be hard to rebel. In any given 10 rounds you can assume 1 would be a warday, and there should be a 6 to 3 LR to rebel ratio (at the least.. prolly more like 7:2) but its been more like switched at 1:2 lr to rebel ratio (or worse). People complaining about cts and how hard it WAS to rebel eventually got their way and now it has completely switched and is no longer balanced. its gotten too hard to even go after rebellers anymore in fear of being slayed and tlisted.

 

To fix this i think the teleport should just be put back to the way it was in armory, or CTs should be allowed to just LOOK down into vents for the first 15 seconds of the round. simple stuff.

To address some other issues i brought up..

 

Derp CTs: This has just gotten to another level with gunplanting and baiting. There needs to be some requirements added into joining CT and leading CT to prevent new and unskilled players some filling up the CT roster. I don't know if its possible, but using the gameme stats maybe not allow a player to join CT unless they have 3 hours (or something) played on T. And a player cannot lead until they have a certain amount of hours or rounds played on CT. If its not possible maybe some other sort of requirement. this would also stop the instant mass freekillers that join the server. All in all something else needs to be put in place to watch all the gunplanting and baiting going around.

 

Map fixes: other than the first cell and kitchen teleports, the knife arena vents should be only openable from the underside (posted about this in another thread and i think its going to be changed), the lasers need to be changed at the start to prevent T's from getting killed by a CT that wants to press the button early. Also i feel like the glass on the bottom part of deagle cage should not break so people cant go running into deagle cage(LR interference, other minor things)

 

Motd stuff: i know JJK and other higher ups are working hard on this to make it clear on what you can and cannot do and how to play, maybe we can get a way to force a player to read the motd before joining or CT, or at least prompt them to read it.

 

Easy rebelling: with !pd and gang perks and the ratio, (along with the derp ct problem i've mentioned), its too easy to rebel for everyone (even me). At first i found it fun and laughed all the time ruining days and screaming AQ, but now its occuring way too often. maybe nerfing some T perks? maybe its just the ct problem.

 

I'd like to say that i love most of the new map and mods that have been introduced and all of the hardwork and time put into these things by the leaders here at HG, im not just complaining to complain, im trying to fix problems and make JB better for everyone. I always have a high K/D on CT and usually lead successful days, but it takes more than 1 or two good cts to keep things in order. these are things i just noticed while playing hours everyday.

 

if you read all this, thank you for reading and hopefully this stuff will be taken into consideration and be addressed. Does anyone else have any comments or suggestions or +1's -1's.. ect.?

 

tl;dr

my main issue here is just all these restrictions put on cts and too many derps. - put back the original armory teleports, knife arena vents breakable from bottom ..

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT "FIX" IT.

 

edit: i am NOT suggesting to beef or boost up the CTS, because you just get a runaway train effect. the extra hp and armor is enough

Edited May 17, 2012 by Bonbon

[Shad0w]

The rebelling is way to easy, your right it actually isn't fun anymore. It was better back when there was no gangs or a buy menu. Something should be done to help out the cts because only having like 10 wins and ts having like 80, that shows there is something wrong.

[Plastered]

wow. read half and had some good points.

[Oreo]

I agree totally with this

I feel like if the tele to armoury is going to stay, let cts look into the vents for a few seconds at the beginning of the round or something

 

Also with the issue of the fucktards on ct these days, I was actually thinking the same things the other day xP, maybe we could make a list that you have to sign up for on te forums or somewhere in the site to be able to join ct, this wod be easy for regulars who know the rules to do, and make new kids get some experience an knowledge of the game and the server before being able to play a ct

 

Good thread nipple:)

 

Also flash back Fridays

[RedDevil6193]

Agree with all except 15 seconds, we never allowed cts to camp armory 15 seconds before then why now, 15 seconds you camp there and by that time other cts get to first cell, basically first cell is useless.

I agree to few seconds but not 15 seconds.

And about more rebelling, i have seen past few days even with derp cts and a good lead can control all ts and still have a good day.

Edited May 17, 2012 by RedDevil6193

[Nipple]

The rebelling is way to easy, your right it actually isn't fun anymore. It was better back when there was no gangs or a buy menu. Something should be done to help out the cts because only having like 10 wins and ts having like 80, that shows there is something wrong.

 

youre right when it comes to its not being fun anymore at all, its not a challenge. the gang mod and buy menu is fine, its just a bit overpowered and its effects are increased with more bad cts there are. and the win to loss ratio is NOT reflective upon what happens, because if you get to LR and the t's win every lr, the T's technically win the round, even though the CT's day was successful

 

and to red devil - BonBon's armory camping plugin does not come into effect until 5:45, that's when you have 7 seconds to get out of armory or be tele'd out and go to 50hp. (unless a T is IN armory). So i do not see the problem with a CT or two looking down into vents until the anti-armory camping plugin starts going into effect. Also once a CT gets to first cell, its not useless anymore, with some trickery or distractions(reloading, other rebellers) you can easily slip into armory from first cell.

 

edit: also i know there have been successful days, im not saying its impossible, its just a lot harder unless you have a bunch of good players on.(i commented the lr to rebel ratio is 1:2.. way too low)

CT's should just be instructed that after 5:45 they cannot be in armory unless they are getting a rebeller.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Nipple

[Shad0w]

Oreos idea is good, where you have to sign up to be a ct.

[(Headband)(EG)]

Agree with all except 15 seconds, we never allowed cts to camp armory 15 seconds before then why now, 15 seconds you camp there and by that time other cts get to first cell, basically first cell is useless.

I agree to few seconds but not 15 seconds.

And about more rebelling, i have seen past few days even with derp cts and a good lead can control all ts and still have a good day.

 

Maybe when F4ithl3ss leads.

[Nipple]

Oreos idea is good, where you have to sign up to be a ct.

 

a CT whitelist where you sign up on the forums? this could be a great solution, but it can seem a bit over the top and cumbersome to a lot of people.

[Oreo]

Oreos idea is good, where you have to sign up to be a ct.

 

a CT whitelist where you sign up on the forums? this could be a great solution, but it can seem a bit over the top and cumbersome to a lot of people.

 

That's the point, people who really want to play ct because they enjoy it and are good at it won't mind coming to the site and signing up, people who just want to fuck around will be less likely to go through the trouble

Feel like it'll help eliminate the derps who get on ct

[Shad0w]

Would stop a lot of mass fks also

[Plastered]

Having the whitelist wouldnt help his point that all the good players want to be T. In fact, the amount lf CTs would drop because many froends of hg wouldnt come to forums to signup just like they dont come to do reports or post many un-tlist requests. Also less CTs= mote chance to rebel which goes against his whole post.

[Nipple]

Having the whitelist wouldnt help his point that all the good players want to be T. In fact, the amount lf CTs would drop because many froends of hg wouldnt come to forums to signup just like they dont come to do reports or post many un-tlist requests. Also less CTs= mote chance to rebel which goes against his whole post.

 

yes exactly. i was thinking about that and is the main issue. i don't think whitelisting CT is a good idea anyway. i was playing tonite for about 2 hours and the ratio ranged from 10:23 to 10:27 and i + 1 other ct were the only competent people playing CT. all the really good players were on T (because its easy and fun to rebel) the LR to Rebel ratio was around 1:6 or 1:7 . it was ridiculous. (mind you this was for 2 hours) and people who were joining CT making ratio better ended up being derps and (thankfully) reddevil was there to get rid of them. but still the other CTS were not very good and had NEGATIVE K/D. (or below 1, whatever you call it). i could barely keep above a 2.0 K/D. and thats really low for me on CT

[Bonbon]

Well, first off

 

help out the cts because only having like 10 wins and ts having like 80, that shows there is something wrong.

 

CTs have a score of 10 and Ts have a score of 80? OH SHIT, that actually means that CTs have won 40-60 rounds, and Ts have only won 80! That's great!

Quoting a team score does not actually mean anything. Why? A score for a team only increases if they kill EVERYONE on the other team.

 

But here's the catch.

 

A Terrorist wins the round if they

• Kill all the CTs
  

 

But wo wo wo wo wo. Not so fast!

A Counter terrorist "wins" the round if they

• Kill all the Ts
  
• Make it to LR. Why is this a win for CTs? Well, the CTs did there job right, and made it to LR...
  
• Make it to 0:00. Why is this a win for CTs? Well, the CTs are still alive, so the terrorists haven't managed to fully rebel and take control of the prison.
  

 

And keep in mind, CTs only get points for the first point mentioned. Not the second and third. So that win score is a very inaccurate way of telling the win-loss ratio.

 

But, enoug

This presents a big problem (or at least a problem if not big). At round start usually at least 2 t's spawn in first cell (sometimes 1 if server is low, sometimes 3+ with perks and !pd). Smart t's will realize that since CT's cannot enter, watch , or camp vents they can enter the vents at round start, and head into knife arena vents and camp for 30seconds then head to armory (where cts cant be standing anymore) and just rebel, open up knife arena vents, going s4s.. ect. With rebelling ALREADY easy as hell, and added derp cts, you're guaranteeing at least 2 t's with assault rifles ( or maybe awps) every round within 30seconds.

 

Actually I agree with this, I didn't really forsee the problem, but I let JJK know about it.

 

). People complaining about cts and how hard it WAS to rebel eventually got their way and now it has completely switched and is no longer balanced

 

Since day 1 of the re-release of gangs on the server, in the back of my mind I felt that it imbalanced the game way too much towards the Ts. But let me assure you, never once did I sympathized with ANYONE that said "It's too hard to rebel now", in fact, I usually laugh at them for not realizing how much harder it was to rebel pre-gangs. Even with all the perks CTs have. Although, we can't get rid of gangs, as since its introduction, we have seen a very nice population boost, and an even nicer increase in donations. Hell, every once and a while (every time gangs leveled up, really) I would nerf all of the perks a bit, much to the distaste of jailbreakers who only play the terrorist side. And I'm always thinking of new ways to give CTs an advantage. Hence the armor, extra health, cheaper !buy menu (Fucking eh guys, it's so cheap on the CT side!) But, unfortunately there is only so much I can do, without people raging over me nerfing gangs.

 

 

here needs to be some requirements added into joining CT and leading CT to prevent new and unskilled players some filling up the CT roster. I don't know if its possible, but using the gameme stats maybe not allow a player to join CT unless they have 3 hours (or something) played on T. And a player cannot lead until they have a certain amount of hours or rounds played on CT.

 

Completely possible, but I have been an adamant opposer of this every single time it has came up. I have a few fears with this

• GOOD leads that come from other Jailbreaks servers may join, nto be able to play CT, and just leave. Right there, we're out of a good CT
  
• Dat ratio will get mega super fucked at times. If you think about it, and look around at your CTs, there's usually never more than 30% good CTs. The rest are people that would probably not meet any requirement we put into place. We can't have a ratio of 30 Ts and 5 CTs. It just will not work. Even though they are "derp CTs", they still provide a balance to the server. If they freekill, we can always tlist them.
  

 

And believe me, that has been suggested MANY times.

 

Which brings me to

 

Also with the issue of the fucktards on ct these days, I was actually thinking the same things the other day xP, maybe we could make a list that you have to sign up for on te forums or somewhere in the site to be able to join ct, this wod be easy for regulars who know the rules to do, and make new kids get some experience an knowledge of the game and the server before being able to play a ct

 

Exactly what I don't want to happen. If we implemented that, we'd have probalby at most 5 CTs on at a time. Let's face it, 33% of the people (The amount of CTs on the server) do not visit the forums, or would not want to just in order to play...

 

And I liked most of your map suggestions, but I don't have anything to do with the new map.

[Nipple]

thank you for the response bonbon, yousoSEXAY.

in response to your third point... i never really meant to imply that you sympathized with anybody or caved into pressure or something similiar. I don't want you to get rid of gangs or !buy and ect. i agree that it was exponentially harder to rebel before. the gang mod has added a lot of popularity and participation. I dont think CTs need anymore boosts, t's honestly need to be knocked back still a bit more. i understand youre gonna get a ton of rage and stuff, but youre doing your job well and youll always have bitchers at your throat. I looked at your reasoning to the CT requirements and i see your points. The ratio is already being screwed up in the server. too many bad/new players on CT compared to the experienced/good players stacking T. the stacking and slight ratio problems are another big impact of the easy rebelling. maybe try to come up with some sort of better incentive system to play CT(or better reiterate the current incentives). i hope JJK reads my OP too because hes a smart MFer like you and you get the job done. thanks for the help and hardwork bro, its appreciated.

[mccaincracker]

my suggestion, and I know i've brought it up with bonbon before.

 

I think that ONCE YOU'RE RED FOR REBELLING YOU SHOULD REMAIN RED FOR THE ENTIRE ROUND.

 

Its really dumb that i can't shoot someone that had the usp and killed 3 ct's because they are only red for 5 seconds, even though I KNOW THEY ARE A REBELLER. If i go and murder someone does that mean that if I hide for a few hours the cops will stop searching for me? anyone who would whine about it being removed should have played back when you're red for the entire round.

[RedDevil6193]

my suggestion, and I know i've brought it up with bonbon before.

 

I think that ONCE YOU'RE RED FOR REBELLING YOU SHOULD REMAIN RED FOR THE ENTIRE ROUND.

 

Its really dumb that i can't shoot someone that had the usp and killed 3 ct's because they are only red for 5 seconds, even though I KNOW THEY ARE A REBELLER. If i go and murder someone does that mean that if I hide for a few hours the cops will stop searching for me? anyone who would whine about it being removed should have played back when you're red for the entire round.

 

well then its means you cant rebel at all, if you stay red all time.

[Nevodka]

my suggestion, and I know i've brought it up with bonbon before.

 

I think that ONCE YOU'RE RED FOR REBELLING YOU SHOULD REMAIN RED FOR THE ENTIRE ROUND.

 

Its really dumb that i can't shoot someone that had the usp and killed 3 ct's because they are only red for 5 seconds, even though I KNOW THEY ARE A REBELLER. If i go and murder someone does that mean that if I hide for a few hours the cops will stop searching for me? anyone who would whine about it being removed should have played back when you're red for the entire round.

 

Only issue I have with this is you become red after holding a gun out for a certain amount of time, and if this is implemented that means you'll be permanently marked a rebel even if you throw away said gun. The time period you're speaking of didn't turn you red for holding out a gun, so that's how it worked in the first place. +1 if doesn't pertain to holding weapons.

[Bonbon]

well then its means you cant rebel at all, if you stay red all time.

 

Pfft. whatever. For almost 4 years it's been that way. Rebel once, you're red for the whole round. It wasn't until a bit after prisonrep was first introduced that this "time system" was put into play.

 

So, I changed the rebel system to this

 

Float:GetRebelTime(rep, bool:kill)
{
   new Float:rebeltime =  95.0 * (1.0 / ((rep + 2800.0) * 0.001));
   if (rebeltime < 5.0)
       rebeltime = 5.0;

   return rebeltime * (kill ? 2 : 1);
}

 

 

This means that sample rebel times based on rep will look like tihs.

 

 

Note, that after 16200 rep, your rebel time is ALWAYS 5.0 for hurting someone, and 10.0 for killing someone.

 

Edit: To answer nevodka's question, you will still only be red for 3-5 seconds (I forget the exact number) if you hold out a gun for 3 or more seconds. (Unless of course you hurt someone in this timeframe, then that rebel time will go up)

[Shad0w]

Thanks bonbon, hopefully that helps the cts out a bit more.

[Cookie]

Agree with all except 15 seconds, we never allowed cts to camp armory 15 seconds before then why now, 15 seconds you camp there and by that time other cts get to first cell, basically first cell is useless.

I agree to few seconds but not 15 seconds.

Before the map change cts were allowed like 20 seconds leeway to pick guns and get out, and if they used first cell teleporter they would spawn right in their view and cts would kill you automatically. So first cell was more useless than it is now. So whats the harm of a ct looking down the vent (not jumping down it or anything) while they leave the armory.

[RedDevil6193]

Before the map change cts were allowed like 20 seconds leeway to pick guns and get out, and if they used first cell teleporter they would spawn right in their view and cts would kill you automatically. So first cell was more useless than it is now. So whats the harm of a ct looking down the vent (not jumping down it or anything) while they leave the armory.

 

Difference is pick up guns and get out, you were never allowed to take guns and camp in there until tele moves you to top of elec chair.

[aj4132]

Agree!

 

 

Thank you very much for making this explanation

[bort]

tl;dr

my main issue here is just all these restrictions put on cts and too many derps. - put back the original armory teleports, knife arena vents breakable from bottom ..

 

As of yesterday's map version, knife arena vents are only breakable by pushing the button in the tunnels underneath (next to the light switch button)

 

As for the the location of the "1st Cell ==> Armory" teleport destination, I will let JJK know about your thread. It seems you have good points.

[bort]

 

here needs to be some requirements added into joining CT and leading CT to prevent new and unskilled players some filling up the CT roster. I don't know if its possible, but using the gameme stats maybe not allow a player to join CT unless they have 3 hours (or something) played on T. And a player cannot lead until they have a certain amount of hours or rounds played on CT.

 

Completely possible, but I have been an adamant opposer of this every single time it has came up. I have a few fears with this

• GOOD leads that come from other Jailbreaks servers may join, nto be able to play CT, and just leave. Right there, we're out of a good CT
  
• Dat ratio will get mega super fucked at times. If you think about it, and look around at your CTs, there's usually never more than 30% good CTs. The rest are people that would probably not meet any requirement we put into place. We can't have a ratio of 30 Ts and 5 CTs. It just will not work. Even though they are "derp CTs", they still provide a balance to the server. If they freekill, we can always tlist them.
  

 

And believe me, that has been suggested MANY times.

 

 

I agree. I don't think a "CT whitelist" or ct requirements is good for the game. Yes, it would prevent some bad leads, but (1) there are other ways to get rid of bad leads (2) it would make the ratio way off (3) it would limit good leads.