Ron Burgundy Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 AP - In a historic vote for gay rights, the Senate agreed on Saturday to do away with the military's 17-year ban on openly gay troops and sent President Barack Obama legislation to overturn the Clinton-era policy known as "don't ask, don't tell." More... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 A+, America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 ... Uncomfortable boot camps and infantry squads... For the sake of being able to be known as "that gay guy." Doesn't seem like a good spot to be in for EITHER side really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 ... Uncomfortable boot camps and infantry squads... For the sake of being able to be known as "that gay guy." Doesn't seem like a good spot to be in for EITHER side really... Are you afraid of gay people? Legit question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmo Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 I'm glad that this finally happened. The United States is now one step closer to getting rid of the intolerance of homosexuals. Now if only they let gays marry. (I am a frim supporter of Gay Rights. Proud liberal am I) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJK Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Ive gotten cussed at - at work for rejecting people for benefits because gay marriage inst recognized by Federal GOVT even though they have a state license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluHorse Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Are you afraid of gay people? Legit question. Based on his post it just seems like he doesn't want the awkwardness that would come with being known as "that gay guy". Personally I love the steps our country is taking. Although obamacare doesn't rub me the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Based on his post it just seems like he doesn't want the awkwardness that would come with being known as "that gay guy". Personally I love the steps our country is taking. Although obamacare doesn't rub me the right way. I imagine those situations already exist. Only now, openly gay service people won't have to be afraid of discharge. Stupid policy was stupid. This is a win for the fight against institutionalized homophobia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizyvipr Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 I'm glad that this finally happened. The United States is now one step closer to getting rid of the intolerance of homosexuals. Now if only they let gays marry. (I am a frim supporter of Gay Rights. Proud liberal am I) I second this post Most of my friends are gay and I, myself, am bisexual. I personally hate how everyone says that America is "the land of the free" when gays can't even get married +1 ON GAY MARRIAGE BEING LEGAL AGAIN! (man i can't wait 'till i can vote) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoCrzy Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 ... Uncomfortable boot camps and infantry squads... For the sake of being able to be known as "that gay guy." Doesn't seem like a good spot to be in for EITHER side really... Actually, according to a Pentagon study, the repeal will have little effect on troop cohesion. Plus it can be assumed that as people get used to it there will be even less than the little the study shows there will be. Repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a positive step for America in providing equality for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Actually, according to a Pentagon study, the repeal will have little effect on troop cohesion. Plus it can be assumed that as people get used to it there will be even less than the little the study shows there will be. Repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a positive step for America in providing equality for all. Moral issues and the relationships that result can't be judged by studies of things that have yet to occur. Don't Ask Don't Tell will have to be judged by a positive approach where the interactions that result are studied. This isn't something where normative "should happen" ideas can tell how it will pan out. So in all honesty, that pentagon study isn't a conclusive fact. While it does provide some insight into the possible effects, what will ACTUALLY happen is yet to be known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoCrzy Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Moral issues and the relationships that result can't be judged by studies of things that have yet to occur. Don't Ask Don't Tell will have to be judged by a positive approach where the interactions that result are studied. This isn't something where normative "should happen" ideas can tell how it will pan out. So in all honesty, that pentagon study isn't a conclusive fact. While it does provide some insight into the possible effects, what will ACTUALLY happen is yet to be known. I don't understand why the study cannot be used to predict troop reactions? They asked troops essentially if they cared if anyone in their squad was gay and most of them said it doesn't really matter, why do we have reason to believe this will change now that it has been repealed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 I don't understand why the study cannot be used to predict troop reactions? They asked troops essentially if they cared if anyone in their squad was gay and most of them said it doesn't really matter, why do we have reason to believe this will change now that it has been repealed? There's a few VERY alarming parts of the "study." One, only 2/3 of the voters said it wouldn't affect the way their unit runs. That's MILLIONS of soldiers who said either that it would or had no comment. That's a LOOOOOOOOT of soldiers. Two, this is a survey, not a study. People's opinions change with the seasons, and with a situation that no one has yet to encounter, one cannot truly take someone's yes or no for fact. That's why a normative analysis (looking at what should/could be) is not probable in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 19, 2010 Share Posted December 19, 2010 Openly gay service people will only irk the homophobic service people. The issue isn't gay people being gay, it's homophobia. Your heteronormativity is showing, Lazarus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Jella you mistake me for a homophobe. I am against overturning don't ask don't tell, but not because I hate gay people. My only gripe is that sooooooo many people blindly say this is another step forward for gay rights when we've yet to see any circumstance like it, there's no SUBSTANTIAL evidence to say it won't adversely affect the armed forces, and we don't even know if Obama is going to sign off for it (though of course he will). I may be a religious conservative, but my approach to this is merely from a positive analysis, not from a religious blindfold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60Seconds Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 I am glad that this has finally happened. I personally don't like gay marriage and I think its weird, but guess what. Its none of my business saying whether people get married or not. So that is why I support allowing gay marriage. Oh and Lazarus, just because your religion says that being gay is bad, doesn't mean you have to fuck up other people's lives with it. Keep it to yourself. If you wanna be a crazy religious extremist, you can do that, as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples live's. That is completely being a homophobe implying that gays can't serve in the military. As the late great Senator Barry Goldwater said "You don't have to be straight to shoot straight." He was a Republican too. Theres seperation of church and state for a reason and another word for religious conservative is retarded hillbilly. Don't ask don't tell is a law that practically forced many people to lie just so they could keep their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 DADT was institutionalized homophobia. Getting rid of DADT is a victory for gay rights because it's one less obstacle for the gays to, you know, be accepted by the government. Being allowed to say "Dude, I'm gay," without fear of being segregated or fired is a positive outcome for gay people and the gay rights movement. This isn't being "blindly" repeated. And yes, you can draw some parallels to when women joined the army. Lazarus, I'm not calling you homophobic. I don't know you. But whether you realize it or not, everything you are saying is laced with heteronormativity and homophobia. You seem to be implying that having openly gay people in the military could negatively affect morale, operations, whatever. Like I said, I'm sure having gay people will upset those who hate gay people. Homophobia is the issue, not gay people being allowed to say they're gay. Unless you're saying that the mere presence of homosexuality can adversely effect the military. I'm not even sure what you're thinking is going to happen, to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awwik Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Meh.....its about time it happened, but it will effect our troops. Some will be able to handle it some wont, I would rather our troops be focused on the mission not who is looking at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 You seem to be implying that having openly gay people in the military could negatively affect morale, operations, whatever. Like I said, I'm sure having gay people will upset those who hate gay people. Homophobia is the issue. This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Homophobia is an issue, and as much as you want to go and say it's not gonna affect anything because no one is a homophobe, that's just not true. Who joins the military? Jockeyed up middle class American men (inb4 you're a sexist) who want to fulfill that lack of adrenaline in their lives. A LARGE portion of this population is homophobic (maybe not a majority if that poll is right but a LARGE portion nonetheless). Yes homophobia is the problem. However, simply saying "They can fix themselves, let them be gay" isn't any different from "They can fix themselves, they don't need to be gay;" i.e. DADT. And Billy Mays please actually read my posts before judging me. For the last time, I'm not for don't ask don't tell. I am simply saying that to jump on this bill and say it will be nothing but beneficial is ignorant. It's a step forward for gay people, but if the backlash to it is strong enough (and given the large population of conservative Americans, it can be) then it could easily be 3 steps forward 2 steps back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccaincracker Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 I am firm Why Cosmo... Thanks for sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Homophobia is an issue, and as much as you want to go and say it's not gonna affect anything because no one is a homophobe, that's just not true. Who joins the military? Jockeyed up middle class American men (inb4 you're a sexist) who want to fulfill that lack of adrenaline in their lives. A LARGE portion of this population is homophobic (maybe not a majority if that poll is right but a LARGE portion nonetheless). Yes homophobia is the problem. However, simply saying "They can fix themselves, let them be gay" isn't any different from "They can fix themselves, they don't need to be gay;" i.e. DADT. So the best way to fight homophobia is to ignore it, or to give in? We don't know how many people are vocally homophobic compared to those who are vocally accepting (or are willing to stand against those kinds of bullies, is what I'm trying to say). And what is this "they can fix themselves" business? In fact, I don't understand your last couple of sentences. This change is going to be hard, I understand that. People will get angry, offended, and butthurt (gays and straights alike). That does not mean this isn't worth it, that this won't be a fantastic change for gays and straights. As long as we keep ignoring systemic homophobia, or continue to appease the homophobes in positions of power, we won't make any progress. Meh.....its about time it happened, but it will effect our troops. Some will be able to handle it some wont, I would rather our troops be focused on the mission not who is looking at them. What are you insinuating, Awwik? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60Seconds Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Jump on this bill? They've been trying to repeal it for years, thats surely enough time to review it. No one gives a fuck about conservative americans and what they think. I have some gay people working for me as interior designers, they don't distract anyone. You are wrong about who joins the military by the way. Poor people who have no other means of making money join the military. Discriminating against gays is just as bad as discriminating against black people. What have gay people ever done to anyone that they can't get married or serve in the army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazaHorse Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 No one gives a fuck about conservative americans and what they think. And this is why this discussion won't go any further. Obvious one-sided liberal is obviously one-sided. Lock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cr(+)sshair Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jella Posted December 20, 2010 Share Posted December 20, 2010 Jump on this bill? They've been trying to repeal it for years, thats surely enough time to review it. No one gives a fuck about conservative americans and what they think. I have some gay people working for me as interior designers, they don't distract anyone. You are wrong about who joins the military by the way. Poor people who have no other means of making money join the military. Discriminating against gays is just as bad as discriminating against black people. What have gay people ever done to anyone that they can't get married or serve in the army. Racism and homophobia are completely separate things. This entire comment is embarrassing. Just stop. Epic tank cozy, btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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