Where we went wrong with JB

[SupaNipplez]

I know I just came back and you can choose not to listen, but regardless, 

I would like to start off by saying I apologize for not doing enough as staff and division leader in trying to get jailbreak back to where it was. I should have been willing to give up an arm for Jailbreak and I wasn't. It was the server that let me find HG and really the only server I ever played in HG. It is my biggest regret that i never fought hard enough to keep it alive. That said, the blame is not solely on leadership, but on the whole community. Staff should not have had to ask people to play on a server, or have events focused on populating the servers, people should just play. People would join for an hour when staff asked, and then never play again until someone asks again. I am tired of seeing the blame being put entirely on leadership despite the lack of effort from many members to play every day and not just when they were asked to.

Now thats out of the way how do you get people on your server? You do whats popular. Yes that means being like the other JB servers. But is that a bad thing? I dont think so. 

If you ask me, repetition is what killed Jailbreak. We had the same map with the same activities every day. Once in a while something new (like wipeout), but eventually it is played so much it is boring.  Jailbreak needs a map rotation. Different maps, with different activities, with new things for people to discover everyday. Incentive for players to come back because there will be something new to find or do. 

The bible needs to be reworked. Perhaps it is just the way it is formatted that it looks like you are actually reading a bible (no offense thomas). I think leadership and moderators need to sit down and just write an entirely new, more simple, list of rules, easy for new players to understand, using the current bible as a guide. 

We also need to be more lenient with new players. Lets say Bob joins CT for the first time. Bob doesnt know the rules well (because its his first time), and freekills some people. Bob gets tlocked. Bob leaves because rather than helping him learn the rules, admins just punished him. What are some solutions to this?  We require players to have spent a certain amount of time on T before they can become a guard so they can learn the rules and how the game works. Dont be nazis with new players who dont understand the rules well, teach them how the game is played so they learn and dont do it again. Dont rule with an iron fist. Learn leniency. 

I believe rep also needs to be reset.  This will provide incentive for people to play regularly. 

More incentive for players. I know suicide in his post suggested things like giveaways, such as free admin to the person with the highest play time in a given amount of time.

 

I hope leadership hasn't just given up on Jailbreak, and does  take this into consideration. Many people still care about this server. Jailbreak is near and dear to many peoples hearts in HG and is the server a lot of people found HG through. Clearly we went wrong somewhere. I have full faith that we as a community, all working together, can bring back our beloved server. I honestly should have never given up so easily and left hellsgamers and for that I am truly sorry. For not realizing this sooner, and to everyone who loves jailbreak and grew up in HG through it.

 Please, dont give up on Jailbreak as easily I did, or give up on CS:GO entirely. We should not give up so quickly.

Perhaps im wrong and jailbreak truly is over for Hellsgamers, but I refuse to believe that given the popularity of other jailbreak servers.

 

Please dont prove me wrong.

Edited November 13, 2018 by SupaNipplez

[epicgamercharchar1312[UK]]

I agree with what Supa said here fully, and anyone who knows me knows that I only really care for JB in csgo. Not going to get into the "my grandfather was a jailbreaker so it makes me sad to see it this way" shit, but this gamemode is a huge part of what HG is, and for a lot of people, is solely what HG is to them.

 

For the maps, it's genuinely such a huge thing for there to be more than just our map. In other communities I have played in, population would spike when a certain map came on because people enjoy that map, and people in general enjoy being able to do different things. You know what I don't enjoy? Running into blue room or ktichen every three minutes and being told to stop ruining the rounds by people because I want to rebel. Newer maps introduce newer metas for guards, some maps are great for people that are good at sniping, some have tight corridors and smaller rooms that require the guards to excel in their aim, and feel good about themselves when they complete a successful day. It's the same for rebels, having more than two set places to run to from the start of the day opens up their gameplay so much and makes it that much more enjoyable for people who enjoy to cause mischief and add a little spice into the day. This also doesn't mean we have to get rid of the jailbreak map.

 

I also agree with the rep/gangs being reset. A lot of people wouldn't be happy with this, some of the main arguments being "this is my rep I played hours to get it" or "I've donated all of this to my gang and now you want to take it away from me wtf" etc. The counter argument to that however is the fact that as the server is literally dead at the moment, their rep and gang rep means nothing. Whilst no I don't think just taking it all away from us for nothing is a good idea, I feel like if we are going to attempt a relaunch of JB then starting from scratch is what we need to do.

My personal idea for this would be to give people 5 credits for every rep that is taken away from them. Whilst of course that could seem OP, as 60k rep would mean you'd get laser letters, but the rate of it was 1:10 whilst the server was alive, with people often valuing 1k rep at $1. This would mean that people don't feel like they've been left empty handed if rep resets do occur.

For the gang side of it, I think that gangs should keep trails unlocked, but not made immediately available. I also think that the gang leaders should be given the rights to the name of their gang if they wish to keep it, or let it be taken by others if they choose to not play the server or if they want to make a different one, so some random guy who comes on for one day doesn't take bald men away, as an example. Another idea for gangs, to make it a bit fairer on the higher tier ones, is to refund maybe 1% of rep that people had donated so when the gang system is wiped some gangs can start going straight away.

 

Whilst I know it is a LOT harder to make a server be populated than me or Supa sitting here throwing out ideas, I feel like even if we are focusing our main population efforts on TTT, we shouldn't just let the other servers we have gain a pile of dust on top of them. Whilst TTT is the main project, we should still be working on the other servers, and showing that we're not giving up, we're just building through a tough time in the division.

[ahbee00]

Hi supa, im wata. It's been ages since I played HG JB, in fact I've already left HG, I'm not sure if you remember me or not however that's not the point. The point I'm trying to make is that what makes HG unique is the map, i don't agree on the idea of map rotating, unless it's maps that are unique to HG. 

Yes rep should reset, I believe that this was in the talks for the longest time ever however there were no actions taken to reset it, you can correct me if im wrong though, I've never been on for a year or so.
 

I'm open to discussions! =)

[SupaNipplez]

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Hi supa, im wata. It's been ages since I played HG JB, in fact I've already left HG, I'm not sure if you remember me or not however that's not the point. The point I'm trying to make is that what makes HG unique is the map, i don't agree on the idea of map rotating, unless it's maps that are unique to HG. 

Yes rep should reset, I believe that this was in the talks for the longest time ever however there were no actions taken to reset it, you can correct me if im wrong though, I've never been on for a year or so.
 

I'm open to discussions! =)

Unfortunately I believe that this uniqueness killed JB. Like I said, it started to become the same thing over and over. Leads were no longer creative because there was nothing new left to do. 

Of course the original map will still be in rotation. Since players vote for maps it may end up being the most used one, but at least the other options are there so things dont get repetitive and boring. 

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But it is the responsibility of leadership to get things done and make changes that encourage people to play. It shouldn't be on the members of HGs back to struggle to populate a server because they have no responisiblity to do so. But to quote good ole uncle ben, "with great power, comes great responsibility". Leadership has a job to do whatever they can within their power to get people to want to play, its not up to HG's core member pool to get stuff done because theyre here for the fun, signing up for a team or position of any power means you're sacrificing part of the time you would be having fun towards ensuring others get to have more fun.

I agree with this. Yes, leadership should make changes that people like. 

But leadership should not have to be asking people to play on a server. People should just get on and play every day without being asked. We shouldn't be seeing mods and staff making status updates begging people to come play Jailbreak, we should just see members getting on everyday without being asked to do so. When you signed up for HG you agreed to that. to stay active on the servers. 

[SupaNipplez]

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In addition to that, converting our server into a map rotational server isn't really easy. It would require a very active dev and a lot of participation from leadership. The entire JB plugin we have that has been used by solely us forever would mostly be useless because it runs dependent on the HG JB map. That means we would need to find a JB plugin, something we have experimented with, but ultimately went nowhere. Becoming like every other JB server is an idea that I supported at one point not too long ago but our JB server ran within a decent sized niche that allowed us to have a stable pop because it WASNT every other JB server, we had a consistent map and consistent rules because of that. It was a feature of our server, not a detriment. 

Nobody said this would be easy. We would be basically starting anew. If not, we can give up on Jailbreak, but whatever we were doing before obviously wasn't working.

Edited November 13, 2018 by SupaNipplez

[-Broken-]

Let me preface this post by saying JB is the reason I joined HG. I took a break after coming back last year due to how my wife was treated by the staff. I was saddened to come back only to see the JB server effectively dead. I guess it was a long time coming, suggestions on improvements and changes went unheeded and people aren't willing to do the same thing over and over again forever. That being said:

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In addition to that, converting our server into a map rotational server isn't really easy. It would require a very active dev and a lot of participation from leadership. The entire JB plugin we have that has been used by solely us forever would mostly be useless because it runs dependent on the HG JB map. That means we would need to find a JB plugin, something we have experimented with, but ultimately went nowhere. Becoming like every other JB server is an idea that I supported at one point not too long ago but our JB server ran within a decent sized niche that allowed us to have a stable pop because it WASNT every other JB server, we had a consistent map and consistent rules because of that. It was a feature of our server, not a detriment. 

That's bullshit. I'm a programmer for a living and offered my services multiple times to the community, I was ignored every time. If the current and past programmers wrote the plugin so that it was entirely dependent on the map, then I'm sorry but they are piss poor programmers. That means that every map fix, every map change, every map improvement could, and often would, break the plugin. If the JB plugin is truly so ingrained in one very specific map, this is an issue that has been stewing for far longer than any of us had imagined.

[Past]

 I concur

[Sharp0o]

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Perhaps im wrong and jailbreak truly is over for Hellsgamers, but I refuse to believe that given the popularity of other jailbreak servers.

Yup, you're wrong.

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Please dont prove me wrong.

Well, too bad.

[Zeused]

in my experience with tf2 and csgo jb, all you really needed were good, funny leads as well as a population. bible shouldn't be reworked, it is fine as is. tf2 has had the same map for a long time, and while I admit having no new maps was one of the reasons people stopped playing on them, I have a feeling even if I had made a new map at the time, the results would have been the same. csgo literally gets a new map every year, and it still died.

 

tldr decent population + lead = people join. not changing the bible/map

[Jeri :)]

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That's bullshit. I'm a programmer for a living and offered my services multiple times to the community, I was ignored every time. If the current and past programmers wrote the plugin so that it was entirely dependent on the map, then I'm sorry but they are piss poor programmers. That means that every map fix, every map change, every map improvement could, and often would, break the plugin. If the JB plugin is truly so ingrained in one very specific map, this is an issue that has been stewing for far longer than any of us had imagined. 

From what I recall the JB code is essentially years and years of different people coding over the same coding resulting in a sort of spaghetti of code and a lot of the code does involve our direct map "lr/teleports/etc.". Hence why whenever we make a map update the coding has to be updated to match said map update. So before we go throwing shit around about the coding let's also assume you haven't looked at it either.

I really felt like towards the end of when I had the motivation to get on JB it really came down to the rules. I feel like we have a good population of leads and we have things to do it's just that we became so fucking anal on our rules. People can be new and I think people forget that and it really turned away a lot of the new population that joined our server BECAUSE we are different and our rules took time to adjust to. I'm not saying different is bad because I love how our JB functions, but something has to be done. I feel like leadership is always going to be the ones that should take up the reins (mods as well) because that's why they are here, but even in Suicide's post I see all these people going "JB is why I joined HG let's bring it back" they get on one day we would get a population then the next day no one would get on. This isn't a day and done type deal because we have to build up a population outside of our members and recruits.

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I also agree with the rep/gangs being reset.

Yeah reset that shit. What good is everyone precious "earned" rep if the server is dead?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Autism

[-Broken-]

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From what I recall the JB code is essentially years and years of different people coding over the same coding resulting in a sort of spaghetti of code and a lot of the code does involve our direct map "lr/teleports/etc.". Hence why whenever we make a map update the coding has to be updated to match said map update.

Continuing to fix janky code is just kicking the can down the road, leaving it for someone else to deal with it later. Like I said, if that's the attitude the developers have had this entire time then this is an issue that's been stewing for far longer than any of us could have imagined. That kind of development attitude pigeon holes you into one map with zero flexibility.

I will admit, I do not know the language the JB plugin is written in. This is me purely spit balling with a very simplified view of how I think it should have been implemented, someone with a better understanding of the plugin can jump in. The main logic for the JB plugin should be written as generic as possible. LR locations should be called as variables, same with teleports. Nothing should be hard coded in the main JB code. Then you just write modules for each map that defines those LR locations, which LRs the map supports, where the teleports go, if those teleports make someone a rebel, etc etc etc. That way instead of having to update the master JB code base whenever the map is updated, you just have to update the module for the map.

[Pongo]

Some interesting thoughts.

HG jailbreak has always positioned itself in the JB community as one of a unique nature, by being different to other servers. Whilst that has worked in the past, it perhaps isn't as effective as it once was. However, I would be concerned that it is now too late for HG to change their stance and bring itself more in line with the "norm" of jailbreak servers. People have the servers they play on and it can be very hard to draw them away into other servers. Why would someone leave the server they play on, to play another server that copied the same model?

I don't have solutions. We tried solutions when I was division staff/division leader, we tried a lot of things, but we couldn't make it happen. Whether that was down to leadership, or the community as a whole or just the fact that CS:GO is in general a dying game (particularly the community server aspect) is beside the point.

I don't have a lot of knowledge in the coding side of things, but from what I read of others comments, it appears the code needs a bit of an overhaul. Even stuff such as resetting rep as suggested I assume would take a lot of developer time. Personally, I would feel uneasy asking coders, who give up a lot of their free time for this community, to put in so much time in re-vitalising JB, with absolutely no guarantee that it will actually be effective. We can all be optimistic and HOPE that it does re-vitalise, but we have no guarantee of that.

I do strongly agree, that a more concise, streamlined version of the bible would be a good change, and wouldn't take too much time. Leniency on new players is a good thing too, although I feel in the recent history we have tried to move more toward this. However, inconsistencies between admins/mods often occured, which made this a bit difficult.

These are just my thoughts - if JB is to be revived I do agree that it probably needs a whole new fresh start, but with no guarantees of success, I'd have to question whether it really is worth the leadership and development time. Time that perhaps could be better placed elsewhere. JB will always have a special place in my heart and amongst others in HG I'm sure, and I'd love to see it be revived, I just don't know how to make it happen, hence why I lost my motivation in leadership - it just felt like failed attempt after failed attempt after failed attempt.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Pongo

[jonmac5037]

the css bible was the best 

 

 

[Comic King]

Interesting topic to say the least. To be honest, I've had similiar feelings lately. 

Like many others, I found HG through the CS:S Jailbreak server... And while there may be no hope for the CS:S Jailbreak (i.e. CS:S is an old game), I'd say CS:GO still has a chance. We used to be the No. 1 JB community around... 

And now... I have to be painfully honest and I'm sorry because of it, we are in deep shit, whether we liked it or not. Pessimism aside, the revival of JB could bring us back to the old glory days. 

The server list Supa provided lists non-American servers. Why couldn't we be the only American one in the top 100 list? We can easily create a monopoly that could last well-enough to gain us some popularity and to keep it that way. I remember when WarOwl once mentioned us in one of his videos with something along these lines: 'Hmm, interesting to see Hellsgamers is still alive, they're one of the real OGs left'. Apparently, we aren't forgotten yet, but then again, we can be if we continue at this pace.

Also, if there wasn't for the server blacklist because of the skins plugin a few years ago, we wouldn't have this problem. 

Sure, HG bible needs to be reformed a little bit. Punishing players for being new doesn't do shit. So many cool features have been implemented and yet no possibility of a temporary CT restriction for new players. 

Anyways, just my two cents. Thanks Supa for bringing this up. 

[epicgamercharchar1312[UK]]

(can't quote for whatever reason so)

This is actually all accurate, the plugin does break with every map update. And any update that structurally changes the map (adding or removing a room, decreasing or increasing an area) we have to update the coordinates for wardays lrs and teles. The programmers who firat started the plugin are long gone and our programmers constantly have to deal with the issues posed.

 

(can't quote for whatever reason so)

In Response to this, why do we even bother trying to keep the jb map then? If having our own custom map produces so much extra work for plugins and code whenever we want to update it, then having it literally has a negative impact on the server. We don't have dedicated Coders for JB and yet we want to do something that requires us to have them...

[SELERY]

Variable. Based. Plugins.

It would take some initial setup work from devs and mappers, but after that we could introduce new maps that work with the cool plugins. 

Basically, instead of having the plugin teleport all players to x,y,z coordinates for a warday, it would send the to point warday_2. That point is a named point entity that can be placed anywhere within a given map. When adding new maps, you would just need to add various points and zones that the plugins recognize. 

Imo, if we can't pull something like that off, then just keep a single map. The custom plugins are what made the hg jb server stand out from the rest.

 

(edit: I skimmed through the thread before posting this and just now read broken's response about variable programming. Same idea, sorry for not reading everything first) 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Queen Selery

[-Broken-]

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Variable. Based. Plugins.

It would take some initial setup work from devs and mappers, but after that we could introduce new maps that work with the cool plugins. 

Basically, instead of having the plugin teleport all players to x,y,z coordinates for a warday, it would send the to point warday_2. That point is a named point entity that can be placed anywhere within a given map. When adding new maps, you would just need to add various points and zones that the plugins recognize. 

Imo, if we can't pull something like that off, then just keep a single map. The custom plugins are what made the hg jb server stand out from the rest.

 

(edit: I skimmed through the thread before posting this and just now read broken's response about variable programming. Same idea, sorry for not reading everything first) 

S'all good. The only issue with that specific implementation is you'd have to edit the maps. It's easier just to have whatever the plugin language's version of include files is for each map that contains definitions for all the variable. And if we can't pull something off like that, the entire coding team needs wholesale replaced. If a coder can't do anything other than hardcode values, that's not a coder you want making anything for you.

[SELERY]

(can't quote on mobile) 

"S'all good. The only issue with that specific implementation is you'd have to edit the maps. It's easier just to have whatever the plugin language's version of include files is for each map that contains definitions for all the variable. And if we can't pull something off like that, the entire coding team needs wholesale replaced. If a coder can't do anything other than hardcode values, that's not a coder you want making anything for you."

You've come to the right girl, I'd gladly edit a few maps to bring jb back. I personally feel like making the variables map based would be easier on the mapping team when it comes to map edits, but either way would be leagues better than the mess we've had in the past. 

[Pyrrhic]

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Continuing to fix janky code is just kicking the can down the road, leaving it for someone else to deal with it later. Like I said, if that's the attitude the developers have had this entire time then this is an issue that's been stewing for far longer than any of us could have imagined. That kind of development attitude pigeon holes you into one map with zero flexibility.

I will admit, I do not know the language the JB plugin is written in. This is me purely spit balling with a very simplified view of how I think it should have been implemented, someone with a better understanding of the plugin can jump in. The main logic for the JB plugin should be written as generic as possible. LR locations should be called as variables, same with teleports. Nothing should be hard coded in the main JB code. Then you just write modules for each map that defines those LR locations, which LRs the map supports, where the teleports go, if those teleports make someone a rebel, etc etc etc. That way instead of having to update the master JB code base whenever the map is updated, you just have to update the module for the map.

The state of the plugin regarding having multiple maps isn't this bleak. The issues that I can foresee right now if we started throwing new maps on at this very moment would be having LRs with no analog on the new map and 300 locations are hard coded. We'd have to add some sort of feature check system and setting the plugin up for a new map would be a pain but it is feasible.

[-Broken-]

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The state of the plugin regarding having multiple maps isn't this bleak. The issues that I can foresee right now if we started throwing new maps on at this very moment would be having LRs with no analog on the new map and 300 locations are hard coded. We'd have to add some sort of feature check system and setting the plugin up for a new map would be a pain but it is feasible.

That many locations being hard coded is a pretty big issue. Modularity is your friend.

[BrickTamland]

First off, I just want to say thank you to Supa for stating this thread. I know that many threads of this nature have been made, but we needed a hard reality check and serious discussion about JB. As many of you have already pointed out, this community owes everything to JB. I, just as many of you discovered HG through JB. It's impact and place in this community is too big to allow the slow and quiet death that it has experienced. I can't speak for everyone, but the CSGO divison wants JB to return. We have 1 server, but we are still very active. The homies are always hopping on TS regardless of whether or not we are playing TTT. And the feeling I get lately is that we are bored, twiddling our thumbs with nothing to do. We hop on to TS because we still want to hang, but everyone is just playing random games because we have 1 lowly server. And Honestly, TTT is not that fun. It is a good break from JB after a while, but I always want to return to JB. 

 

These are just my thoughts. I unfortunately cannot code, cannot map and am not a staff member. So I tangibly cannot offer any services to help the situation. But I still think it is valuable to express my feelings as a member. I would like to conclude by challenging leadership to have some serious talks about what can be done to bring the server back. It could be very beneficial to invite people like  -Broken- to a staff meeting to discuss in detail what it would take to create a better plugin for the server. We shouldn't take the skills and abilities of HG members for granted. And that doesn't necessarily mean that -Broken- will do the coding (I don't want to volunteer him for that), but he seems like he can bring useful information to the table as you plan the future of JB. 

 

Thanks, 

Brick 

[SupaNipplez]

Reading through this thread it is great to see members step up to the plate and offer their expertise and show their willingness to work with leadership to make much needed changes.

I think Finch hit the nail on the head, we need to get out of our current mindset that we can go back to how JB used to be (same map, same rules) and things will be fine. We need to change. Given how our past efforts have yielded no results, what is the harm in trying. Sometimes change can be good.

If leadership reads this thread PLEASE listen to the community and their ideas. Dont give up on Jailbreak. If you guys are willing to try our ideas, i would be more than happy to offer my help in any way i can. Im sure that can be said for quite a few people in this community as well. 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by SupaNipplez

[Pongo]

One thing that has always bothered me, and I'm not trying to fire shots at anyone here, is people that say stuff like "It's so easy to revive just do ______________" or worse when people say "CS:GO should be doing better" without offering any suggestions on how to do that.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to pass judgement on leadership from an outside perspective, and see things in a very black & white way. As if just changing one small thing is gonna overnight be like wow look at that we have a steady 30-40 player population again because we adjusted the bible or we added a new LR (for the record adjusting the bible is a good idea but isn't going to revive pop on it's own & obviously fresh content is good but same applies).

When I first started out as staff/division leader, we tried, we really did. It's SO SO draining to keep trying and trying to bring it back and not succeeding at every hurdle for whatever reason. In the end I personally lost motivation, hence the big fat retired status.

No one has a crystal ball. I remember about a year ago, JB was in a similar struggling state to what it was in now, with very low pop, and then suddenly out of nowhere we were getting a high consistent pop. Nothing caused this - there was no new map, no new plugins, no new bible, pop just randomly spiked out of nowhere for a month or two and then unfortunately went down again. Sometimes these things just happen out of the blue.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Pongo

[SupaNipplez]

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One thing that has always bothered me, and I'm not trying to fire shots at anyone here, is people that say stuff like "It's so easy to revive just do ______________" or worse when people say "CS:GO should be doing better" without offering any suggestions on how to do that.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to pass judgement on leadership from an outside perspective, and see things in a very black & white way. As if just changing one small thing is gonna overnight be like wow look at that we have a steady 30-40 player population again because we adjusted the bible or we added a new LR (for the record adjusting the bible is a good idea but isn't going to revive pop on it's own & obviously fresh content is good but same applies).

When I first started out as staff/division leader, we tried, we really did. It's SO SO draining to keep trying and trying to bring it back and not succeeding at every hurdle for whatever reason. In the end I personally lost motivation, hence the big fat retired status.

No one has a crystal ball. I remember about a year ago, JB was in a similar struggling state to what it was in now, with very low pop, and then suddenly out of nowhere we were getting a high consistent pop. Nothing caused this - there was no new map, no new plugins, no new bible, pop just randomly spiked out of nowhere for a month or two and thenunfortunately went down again. Sometimes these things just happen out of the blue.

Few things to address here. Yes, this wont just happen overnight. If this community does still love JB like they claim they do, than it is on them to get on the server and play on a regular basis. Both leadership AND the community need to show up and do their part if we want any chance at reviving JB. 

I wouldnt say these are just small changes, things like rewriting the bible and having a map rotation. A small change to me (like i addressed in the thread) is something like adding wipeout. More maps means many more activities to play, thats a big change from the same activities every day. 

Also why be so quick to assume that it wont do anything? I dont think thats the right attitude to have. We have never tried it before therefore we have no proof that it wouldnt. Weve tried other solutions and it seems to be the server has basically been given up on so whats the problem with at least trying?

[Pongo]

I do agree that if something it happens it needs to be a massive overhaul with everyone involved.

Maybe it's just my pessimistic nature - but on the reverse side - why be so quick to assume that it will do anything? Based on history and the fact we've tried many other things before which at the time we thought would definitely revive pop but ended up with barely noticeable effects on population (particuarly non-HG population) - why would anything else we do be any different?

I realise I'm being very pessimistic at this point, I'm not just trying to disagree with everything you're saying. From a strictly personal point of view, I've just lost hope.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Pongo