Inconsistency in a rule

[TopBlokeGman]

People get kicked and banned for racism, notably saying, 'the nword'. HG ZS has used the suicide bomb with a muslim chant for a very long time, and I realized that's actually pretty racist. Is this a double-standard in the community, an oversight, or is HG selectively racist?

One solution could be changing the sound to the old gold meme, "beep beep beep WTF BOOM".

[Lynxx]

I would have to severly disagree. the "LALALALALA" sound isn't racist, because its literally just a noise that has been used, not just in gmod, but in tons of other games for decades, and it has NO racial implications. This seems more like a nitpick than anything else. Aswell, we have a weapon named the "Akbar" AK and no one in the history of ZS has had an issue with either. Its not discriminating against a certain group of people, nor is it equivalent to calling someone or something a slur, its a 3 second long audio clip of "LALALALALALALA". Its not racist to say "ALLUHA AKBAR" either, because the same is true as stated above, its not calling others a slur, nor is it discriminating.

[MN ZS FAN]

I'm glad this is being brought up because seeing a anime girl with giant mommy milkers and a fat dump truck pull a ipad sized bomb out her ass and scream alalalalalalalalal then blow the entire zteam across the map offends me 
 

[TopBlokeGman]

 

37 minutes ago, Lynxx said:

I would have to severly disagree. the "LALALALALA" sound isn't racist, because its literally just a noise that has been used, not just in gmod, but in tons of other games for decades, and it has NO racial implications. This seems more like a nitpick than anything else. Aswell, we have a weapon named the "Akbar" AK and no one in the history of ZS has had an issue with either. Its not discriminating against a certain group of people, nor is it equivalent to calling someone or something a slur, its a 3 second long audio clip of "LALALALALALALA". Its not racist to say "ALLUHA AKBAR" either, because the same is true as stated above, its not calling others a slur, nor is it discriminating.

The racial implications behind the suicide bomb is that muslims commit suicide with explosives. Sure, it does happen, though it's extremists who claim to be of Islamic faith.

Good point on the akbar AK. That's more islamophobia, though, which is also an issue that should be discussed.

 

Nobody's raised an eyebrow because they live in their respective online and RL bubbles. Recognizing the privileges we have as individuals who don't have to put up with these stereotypes is the first step.

In today's society, especially in USA, there is a lot of underlying racism toward the Middle Eastern cultures and peoples.

[KingLime]

2 hours ago, TopBlokeGman said:

 

The racial implications behind the suicide bomb is that muslims commit suicide with explosives. Sure, it does happen, though it's extremists who claim to be of Islamic faith.

Good point on the akbar AK. That's more islamophobia, though, which is also an issue that should be discussed.

 

Nobody's raised an eyebrow because they live in their respective online and RL bubbles. Recognizing the privileges we have as individuals who don't have to put up with these stereotypes is the first step.

In today's society, especially in USA, there is a lot of underlying racism toward the Middle Eastern cultures and peoples.

isnt assuming that the "LALALALALA" clip is a Muslim extremist racist itself? it doesnt say anywhere that it is a Muslim saying it, and like mentioned above, he isnt saying allahu akbar, just LALALALALA.

[Jimothy]

I'm pretty sure the source of the sound is from Postal 2, where it is 100% used in an offensive way. https://youtu.be/MgcIT91ZHJw.

That being said, the whole point of that game was to be offensive to everybody and over the top to a point where it was comical. I'm not sure if that sentiment carries over if its just that sound effect that plays when someone blows themself up. The stereotype of middle easterners are terrorist suicide bombers has been around for a long time. It only would be an issue if someone genuinely believed the stereotypes and hated others because of it. I think a lot of people on these servers are able to laugh at the absurdity of it in an ironic sense, or don't even think about it at all.

[Lynxx]

So would you like us to change something that has been apart of not just ZS, but source games for decades? it seems like a tall order, especially considering the fact that you are, so far, the only one to have an issue with it, even though all you need to go is Escape - Options - SFX audio and mute it. Problem solved, you no longer hear it, and. As for the Akbar AK, Again, been in the game since its conception, and its an issue only NOW coming up because i mentioned it. It has NO racial connotations, nor is it promoting racism. Its literally the nickname for a gun because gurrila groups such as one in the middle east use the AK. Is the "Schmeisser" MP40 racist because it was used by the Nazi's in WWII? I don't think so. It has zero bearing on racism, its ironic, its mean to be a joke. No one in ZS, nor do i think in any HG server actually became or is racist and uses a random GMOD gamemode to back up their ideals. Its just seems to me as an excuse to be offended by something that no one else has ever had an issue with. Ever. If you do have an issue with it, as stated above, you can turn off SFX audio and you don't have to hear it anymore. Problem - Solved.

[SPlink :)]

11 hours ago, TopBlokeGman said:

 Is this a double-standard in the community, an oversight, or is HG selectively racist?

 

 

No

[SenpaiiPlz]

1 hour ago, KingLime said:

isnt assuming that the "LALALALALA" clip is a Muslim extremist racist itself? it doesnt say anywhere that it is a Muslim saying it, and like mentioned above, he isnt saying allahu akbar, just LALALALALA.

1 minute ago, SPlink said:

 

No

Your sig is perfect for this response. Also 

 

I think it's pretty absurd to ask if a community as a whole is racist because of one sound effect in-game that is widely used

[Seymour Butz]

it’s called Ululation and it’s in many different cultures. But, yes. It’s an old islamophobic clip. It’s called the jihad sound effect. 
 

HG is pretty selective sometimes. Some divisions can’t say homophobic slurs, some look the other way. That sound clip is definitely from way back from the early 2000’s where people were more callous than now. It’s definitely islamophobic joke sound clip and defending it by saying “oh but it’s been there for so long!” is not a good defense. If that was a good defense then I guess any sort of civil rights act wouldn’t have passed or slavery would have never been abolished. 
 

If it’s an actual issue then I think leadership should look into it but I know ZS is known to be more toxic than other divisions so it also depends on what the players think. 

[bobbythed]

37 minutes ago, Seymour Butz said:

it’s called Ululation and it’s in many different cultures.

Learn something new everyday, neat.
 

As far as the topic, I agree with Seymour that HG is selective. Homophobic slurs are allowed in CSGO and every time it has been brought up at a leadership level it's been reaffirmed as acceptable so long as it's not not breaking the "respect all players" rules. Personally I don't know why so many people are so attached to that word that they defend its use regardless of its history of oppression, but I digress.

Realistically unless someone speaks up about stuff like this, and gets enough people to agree that those permitting it have to listen, nothing will be done. We use a similar sound clip (maybe the same? IDK I don't play ZS) for our suicide bombs in jailbreak. Never really thought of it as Islamophobic but I could see how someone could interpret it that way. I also don't know if it's an issue that needs resolution because my personal experience with it hasn't been in that context.

I think its worth talking about this stuff because its easy for people who are used to the way things are to gloss over things that may be hurting other people unbeknownst to them. I'm not sure this instance qualifies as the way I think of that clip is more of an absurdist take on extremists, not the whole religion of Islam. I do however think discussing it is helpful so regardless thanks.

[Sublion]

Imagine white people trying to explain how something isn't racist towards another race, the suicide bombs are flat out racist. 

[bert]

Yes hg is selectively racist 

 

[KB]

This is actually a controversial topic. I'll have to agree that obviously with "common sense" we all know the jihad sound comes from the islamic group that suicide bombs praising allah before sacrificing themselves to their beliefs. In my opinion, a simple sound effect of a bomb explosion to replace the "allah" should be no issue. But this isn't the only situation I've found controversial.

So since my return to playing jb this month, I've noticed that a lot of players on the jb server (no need for names) will use the word retard(ed) directly to often mock a players style of gunplay or movement, My comparison here is with the word "fag" The word like other derogatory words is offensive, yet I hear the word retard being thrown left right and center when this word is putting people down and insulting them. Yes, I'll agree my analogy is a bit radical and out there but remember our goal in HG stands to respect all players. I personally feel like retard is a word that is never used in a positive way.

I'd love to hear feedback on this. Lemme know please I'm being a little to extreme lol

[Icon]

As someone who had previously (like 6 years ago @Burnt) defended the use of the homophobic slur, I now cringe whenever I hear it. So I understand where those that would argue to keep it are coming from. Not saying it wasn't an issue before, but normally when people bring up similar issues they do it to cause trouble. Doesn't seem to be the case this time. I think selectively racist isn't really what I would call it, more like selectively enforcing. Like I always mess around about my, let's say heritage, with @ASCII. I say it's all on good fun, but it's something I still wouldn't be doing around others as they might be offended. I know when we mess around it's not to offend each other, which is probably why I don't really think about it much. I always think if someone is offended by something they should bring it up. Only issue is usually when they do bring something like this up is to deflect away from their own mistakes. This is probably a conversation that should be brought up at the cD meeting.

Anyway I'm rambling. I like the idea of this changing because it really doesn't affect anything, but would prevent offending others. As far as jailbreak I'll change the sound as soon as I find something to replace it with. I'm thinking of doing a contest. 

[Lemonade!]

8 hours ago, Sublion said:

Imagine white people trying to explain how something isn't racist towards another race, the suicide bombs are flat out racist. 

^ this

I am a muslim man myself and it is unfunny when people make racist jokes such as "alalalal" "allahu ackbar". This isnt a good look for the server especially when the game csgo esports itself started losing sponsorships because big companies did not want to sponsor anything that had to do with "terrorists" and blowing stuff up. for example you look at valorant now and the spike is another word for the bomb and both sides are called attackers and defenders. for you to say that its been a part of the game for decades now and it is fine the way it is, is the reason why cancel culture has been thriving on twitter because being racist in 2021 is not cool. people are adapting and people get left behind that defend these ideologies

[SenpaiiPlz]

7 hours ago, KB said:

This is actually a controversial topic. I'll have to agree that obviously with "common sense" we all know the jihad sound comes from the islamic group that suicide bombs praising allah before sacrificing themselves to their beliefs. In my opinion, a simple sound effect of a bomb explosion to replace the "allah" should be no issue. But this isn't the only situation I've found controversial.

So since my return to playing jb this month, I've noticed that a lot of players on the jb server (no need for names) will use the word retard(ed) directly to often mock a players style of gunplay or movement, My comparison here is with the word "fag" The word like other derogatory words is offensive, yet I hear the word retard being thrown left right and center when this word is putting people down and insulting them. Yes, I'll agree my analogy is a bit radical and out there but remember our goal in HG stands to respect all players. I personally feel like retard is a word that is never used in a positive way.

I'd love to hear feedback on this. Lemme know please I'm being a little to extreme lol

I completely agree. Especially about "fag" and "retard".
1) I'm bi-sexual and I cringe really hard every time I hear someone say it. Now I know fag and fa**** (LOOK IT'S EVEN **** ON THE FORUMS it shouldn't be allowed in game either!) have their own meanings that aren't derogatory, but let's be real here and admit that nobody is ever using those terms in those ways.
2) I'll admit, unlike #1, I do occasionally use the word retard or retarded myself. Typically in a joking manner, or not targeting anyone. Such as, "Bro you're retarded" to a friend jokingly, or, "This is retarded", referring to something that I find to be dumb. But again, let's be real here and admit that there definitely are people who take offense to these words as well, including myself especially when someone is blatantly calling someone a retard in a rude manner. That just pisses me off. I have family that are mentally challenged and disabled, including myself who am bi-polar (but I don't personally take offense to the word in regards to that). So hearing someone say it in a non-joking manner does upset me, but I'm partially hypocritical cuz I use the word jokingly.

Personally, I straight up think the words "fag" and "fa****" should be on the not allowed list. Those words are seldom ever used in a joking manner. As for "retard/retarded", that's more up in the air. I personally wouldn't mind if those words weren't allowed at all either, but I also wouldn't mind if they were only not allowed per admin disgression. Such as if it were to be used in an offensive manner, warn>mute>etc. If it were to be used in an obviously harmless manner, just let it go.

Sorry for rant, he asked for feedback lol 

Edited April 10, 2021 by SenpaiiPlz

[StaibraV]

out of my 6 years of playing this game you are the first person to ever complain about this 

Edited April 10, 2021 by StaibraV

[KillerQueen6120]

kinda weird that we can't say the n-word but homophobic and transphobic slurs are a-ok. IMO none should be allowed, as some groups of people may feel unwelcome in the community

Edited April 10, 2021 by KillerQueen6120

[SenpaiiPlz]

11 minutes ago, KillerQueen6120 said:

kinda weird that we can't say the n-word but homophobic and transphobic slurs are a-ok. IMO none should be allowed, as some groups of people may feel unwelcome in the community

 I agree. I feel like the only reason they are still okay is cuz edge lords. There really is no good reason why those words are allowed. They're offensive and prejudice, just like the "n-word" and any other racial slurs. One day on one of our servers, there were a few people mocking someone because they "sounded trans". Calling them a tranny and acting like they've never knew they existed. It's super cringe and that was in a less derogatory way than the terms being discussed..

[StaibraV]

32 minutes ago, KillerQueen6120 said:

kinda weird that we can't say the n-word but homophobic and transphobic slurs are a-ok. IMO none should be allowed, as some groups of people may feel unwelcome in the community

yea but that's the thing no one will recognize them as slurs 

[7Z.]

42 minutes ago, KillerQueen6120 said:

kinda weird that we can't say the n-word but homophobic and transphobic slurs are a-ok. IMO none should be allowed, as some groups of people may feel unwelcome in the community

I agree 100%... The situation with some slurs being allowed while racial slurs are not is inconstant IMO. I refer to idubbbz content cop on Tana Mongeau, where he makes the common sense conclusion, that all slurs should be allowed or non at all.

It would be a welcomed change for me to see less use of derogatory slurs in HG.

Please point out if I am missing a key point in why things are the way they are currently. 

[Burnt]

16 hours ago, Icon said:

As someone who had previously (like 6 years ago @Burnt) defended the use of the homophobic slur, I now cringe whenever I hear it. So I understand where those that would argue to keep it are coming from. Not saying it wasn't an issue before, but normally when people bring up similar issues they do it to cause trouble. Doesn't seem to be the case this time. I think selectively racist isn't really what I would call it, more like selectively enforcing. Like I always mess around about my, let's say heritage, with @ASCII. I say it's all on good fun, but it's something I still wouldn't be doing around others as they might be offended. I know when we mess around it's not to offend each other, which is probably why I don't really think about it much. I always think if someone is offended by something they should bring it up. Only issue is usually when they do bring something like this up is to deflect away from their own mistakes. This is probably a conversation that should be brought up at the cD meeting.

Anyway I'm rambling. I like the idea of this changing because it really doesn't affect anything, but would prevent offending others. As far as jailbreak I'll change the sound as soon as I find something to replace it with. I'm thinking of doing a contest. 

In a general sense Icon and I have talked about this topic before, ages ago we both were against the homophobic slur (f-word) because it felt cultured into gaming almost.  I had also previously argued for other topics that I now find cringe and trivial (n-word use anywhere in servers).  I do think this is a good idea, getting rid of these things from our server.  As times change so will HG.  In my opinion we may need to look into some policies and revamp them, and then roll them out effectively.  It starts with things like this, and I agree HG can be better.  This will get discussed.

[SenpaiiPlz]

46 minutes ago, StaibraV said:

yea but that's the thing no one will recognize them as slurs 

wot 

13 minutes ago, Burnt said:

In a general sense Icon and I have talked about this topic before, ages ago we both were against the homophobic slur (f-word) because it felt cultured into gaming almost.  I had also previously argued for other topics that I now find cringe and trivial (n-word use anywhere in servers).  I do think this is a good idea, getting rid of these things from our server.  As times change so will HG.  In my opinion we may need to look into some policies and revamp them, and then roll them out effectively.  It starts with things like this, and I agree HG can be better.  This will get discussed.

I really like this response. Big  I look forward to hopeful changes in certain policies/rules.

[Benz]

I understand both sides of this coin. However, there is a smaller picture and a bigger picture here IMO. The bigger picture is that we are a Public community and we should not allow certain words/behavior because they are just flat-out offensive (just as much as the N-word). If I walked into a public place to sit down and eat and the people next to my table were using homophobic slurs, I would not like it or appreciate it and I am not gay, If I was, it would be worse. Now let's say that I complained to a manager and the manager told me that they are not going to do anything about it, I would then leave that restaurant and not go back and would not recommend the place to any of my friends probably because it is up to the managers of that restaurant to make sure that its guests have a good experience and feel comfortable at its establishment. This is a slippery slope on both sides rather it is allowed or not allowed TBH and if things like this are allowed then it needs to be regulated and monitored in a way that it would not cause any issues of any kind but that is a ton of work and in some cases, people would leave and or not join HG by allowing this kind of talk/behavior. In all honesty, there are going to be people that don't like the decision either way. it is a double-edged sword. At any rate, UM does care very much about any topic and issue that comes our way. HeLLsGamers is a fun and welcoming community that cares and appreciates everyone in it. My 2 cents, keep the change.

 

My above statement goes for discriminative slurs, racial slurs, and homophobic slurs