Suggestions regarding the current situation of the server

[#ClownBot]

After having a chat with some players on HG, i came with an agreement to make a post suggesting some changes to make HG better. I feel like the server is extremely unbalanced even to this date, up to a point where the playerbase has decreased overtime. I've seen players mostly online during events where you get extra points

You are not obligated to do the changes right away. This is something that i wish i could do earlier but i was busy with stuff irl and etc etc

1.The Cards

The cards are very op for both sides. I understand that you want to bring a purpose for the points but ever since the cards were added, people started to become "pointwhores", zombies almost killing humans in 2 hits and so on and so forth. Literally a tier 1 pistol, an example would be the revolver, they can almost insta kill a zombie. I suggest removing this system because, althought it seems fun on paper, makes the points look like a chore rather than something fun and practical. 

2. Blood Arsenal

The blood arsenal is a great addition for zombies by motivating them to attack the cades more and more. However, the system, yet again, is broken. A nightmare can one shot a full HP human, as an example. Let's not talk about humans wasting props outside the cade just so the zombies to farm them, resulting in making them op during the main waves. Removing it would make the zombies make their own tactics instead of going barricade blazing.

 

Thank you for reading. If you dislike or like what i said about these and if you got other complaints about the changes in the server, you are freely allowed to express your opinion in the comments

[Roberazo]

I actually support that,but there are problems with the cards,that thing were added from a few years,so the people spent ton of points for upgrading the cards,and if the staffs accepted that they will have to make a global vote on hgzs forums must stay for while and sometimes make a vote for it on the server to make sure that every 1 is happy with that and the rules is at least 80% of hgzs players agree with out any refunds for thier upgrade,and if that happend and the cardle and the cards got removed they will have to balance everything.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Roberazo

[Uni]

HG ZS has its own unique way of presenting the ZS game mode to the players, without the two things mentioned in this topic, the server would lose some of its most important values. Spending tens of thousands of points on cards only to increase the stats by a minimal amount is just like the level up system in vanilla ZS, which can even prove to be “overpowered” in some situations. A different play style does not equal to a unbalanced system.

[Talbot]

Cards are minimal upgrades, so I don't know where you get the revolver instant killing zombies along with the Nightmare. Players enjoy upgrading their cards, it has become an habit for them to get decks and have spent a lot of points on them as of now. Sure some cards might give more than a minimal upgrade like worth card, but these cards are rare enough so not every human player has one. The zombie crates like you said, are to motivate players going zombie, I have yet to see it broken like you said, Nightmares are strong zombies and getting hit by one is pretty much a secure death, after all, it is a boss zombie.

[Snowyamur]

Removing the card system wouldn't change anything about the pointwhoring problem. That was a problem to begin with ever since we incorporated pointsaving on our server, and as long as pointsave still exists, there will always be pointwhores. If pointwhoring is a problem, we could remove pointsaving, but even I don't advocate for that as that would ruin the server and make it no more unique than any other.

Cards provide very small boosts and upgrades to stats; they affect the gameplay, but they are in no means overpowered nor broken. Yes, some players insta-kill as a Nightmare, but it helps to think that zombies purchase Eviscerator from the Blood Arsenal to pull this off. Even Lvl. 1 or 2 Nightmares wouldn't be able to insta-kill without it, and these cards are Legendary, so leveling up the Nightmare is essentially a grind. If people insta-kill with pistols, maybe that's because the zombies they kill are injured before they took the shot, such that they die. Bottom-line: cards act as a point-sink to slightly alleviate the pointwhoring problem, but there will always be pointwhores.

As for the Blood Arsenal, having zombies only hit the barricades for their points or humans intentionally nailing props, then dying to farm them =/= the Blood Arsenal being broken. That doesn't make sense. Given there's a problem with zombies hitting loose props for BP, we could make the range at which BP be more closer to humans such that players don't commit to this kind of behavior. As for humans that meta-game, we ban them on the spot; problem solved.

For the most part, what I'm reading here is only, "Cards and Blood Arsenal are OP, so please remove immediately." That's really all I'm seeing here.

[#ClownBot]

I haven't said to IMMEDIATELY remove them. It's just something that i found a bit gimmicky. Maybe it is just me

[Snowyamur]

I'm sure many agree with you, but personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the cards nor Blood Arsenal.

I think some of the cards and zombie traits could use some tweaking and re-balancing, but for the most part, the system itself isn't a poor integration. Cards help to slightly alleviate the pointwhoring problem on our server, while the Blood Arsenal puts zombies on a more even playing field with humans when it comes to traits. Humans have traits, so zombies should have them too.

[Northground]

The cards system is absolutely awful. It is true that it has somewhat served its purpose of letting players actually use their points for something and also creating an incentive for players to play, but at the cost of disturbing the balance of the server. There are numerous problem with the system, and i would argue the biggest one is that it slowly but surely leads to the server becoming less noob friendly. You see, if new players join, players who at the same time are not very good at the game, they dont stand a chance to more seasoned players who at the same time has put countless hours and points into upgrading their equipment. So while the system might lead to some veterans staying longer for the grind, it actually limits the amount of new players we get eventually. There are also problems when it comes to the balance of the cards themselves, wrongful buffing and nerfing of guns/zombies themselves due to the cards and the actions of the players themselves which all make the system bad. It seems to me that when it comes to the stats of the cards themselves they dont upgrade what would make sense, that is, the stat that a certain gun has its niche in. They instead also often upgrade the gun or zombies downside which can make it quite unbalanced and more of an all situations type of weapon. When it comes to how the players themselves make it unbalanced it is mostly due to there not being an equilibrium between players upgrading zombies and guns. On top of there being no reason to believe that upgrading a zombie and a gun somehow evens itself out in terms of dps there is also a layer of unbalance that comes from players quite clearly chosing to upgrade their weapons instead of their zombies, most likely because most people are human mains. This in turn leads to humans winning more and the idea arises that the guns themselves should be nerfed which just fucks over the kleiners which dont have good cards upgrades. Please, remove the system.

 

[Snowyamur]

I don't think it's a good idea to completely remove a system once it's attached @Northground. We risk breaking our own database, resulting in even larger consequences. I think re-balancing and re-tweaking the cards system would be more doable and less risky over just completely removing the system overall.

Besides, if we remove the system, how would we compensate the points players have spent on upgrading their cards. We have to consider that rising problem as well should we go with the full removal of cards.

[pho-]

It's actually an issue of everything being buffed directly because of power creep. To mediate it the solution is to slowly revert changes back to previous stats such as damage reductions for weapons to when they were introduced etc. As for what I am doing right now, to make guns suited for their tiers; I reduce the guns considered OP to bring them in line with guns which are outshined by others, rather than buffing the weaker guns. Along with this I'm reducing the stats for each gun level. I prioritise things such as reload for bow weapons, damage for assault rifles, accuracy for sniper rifles etc. Each level will scale differently by rarity, and the only reason it takes a while is because I'm lazy and don't want to dedicate 24 hours to zs a day. I aim to bring things back to a level where zombies take 4 hits to kill a human with 100hp, rather than 3. This means that their damage to humans shouldn't go above 33.3. 

Despite that, I think the card system is fine, it's just been managed extremely poorly by ignoring the consequences of stacking buffs against nerfs and vice versa; so yes, rather than adding new content, I'm prioritising reverting and mediating the issues which have come up as a result of said balance issues. 

[#ClownBot]

The new boss (the crow thing) is extremely op.  Idk who had the idea to add an unkillable boss that doesn't die from gunshots

[Red_McCloud]

I personally find the card system great even though it does kinda muck up the balancing, as actually acquiring cards for weapons you WANT isn't super straightforward; you can't just buy 10 levels for the peashooter and call it good off the bat, you have to earn them ingame via chests and the like, and even then it's still a gamble. However, the point that it gives veteran players a massive overall boost is definitely true. The more cards you have, the better you are by default. I've been playing ever since the introduction of them and I still don't have many cards, but I see people running around with level 5 planks and melee perks massacring zombies wave 1 too often to not question the system slightly. I just hope the balancing continues and, maybe, more ways to directly get card packs are added, to help newer players build a collection in a shorter amount of time.

[NovaStreams]

I think it's just that some things needs to be buffed/nerfed. Instead of removing the card system entirely we can just nerf the broken ones and buff the useless ones (which the devs are doing every now and then that shuts the server down for a while).

[Senpai Abraham]

I agree that the card system isn't really a problem, I mean if you put time and effort into something, you should be rewarded. Personally the overall problem I see isn't really much of people being to OP or point whores, but rather people just not leading the group. Same thing with the blood arsenal, though most zombies just keep going for tearing through the cade for barricade points, no one really tries to lead them to new tactics to breaking through the cade. For example set in 2 different views:

Humans: Though we point whore yes, the part of point whoring is still beneficial as it can provide easy access to more repairers, as repairing is honestly one of the best ways to profit 100% of the times, take KOR for example. He repairs almost all the time when it's a shit map. Also another problem I didn't address earlier which should also be sought out is the fact that no one ever really cades, so I assume thats the reasoning for people point whoring. Also to get on the fact of the revolver one shotting zombie, that is only if the zombies are going in a straight line, honestly, 108 damage to the head is a lot, yes, but if the zombie is smart and goes in a zig-zag formation, the hitbox is quite hard to hit for most players to get that "one-shot" effect.

 

Zombies: For the blood arsenal, though it makes people hoarding for barricade points as well as the fact that the zombies basically go for the attack cade 24/7 with no tactics, lets be honest. Once again re-checking the fact that no one tries to lead zombies and when they do, usually its a half-ass job, for example: Everyone go nightmare and attack the cade! (Imagery of cade: The prop is seperated to top and bottom, not just one prop blocking the whole entrance like a door cade) To the point, when you say "attack the cade" it's too vague which doesn't help the situation rather than saying: "Every go nightmare and attack the top props!", thats more specific and helps in the definition of tactics. The whole point I'm trying to get for zombies is that no one tries to lead, should people lead can we see tactics be use. (Hint hint: Someone go shade while every one else goes: Nightmare, Ticklemare, etc...)

[#ClownBot]

Somebody finally understood what i meant in my post. Honestly i don't understand why there are some cards that are literally useless like Fists, worth (tho not sure if it exists bc somebody pointed it out), zombie resistance, jump card and even speed. Why weren't the cards limited to guns, zombies and melee only? 

[Senpai Abraham]

@Penoltinum, If you look at it in the developers view, they just added more cards for more reasons to spend your points, as I assume the reason for the points being stored is to hoard and have once again a unique feel. Going back to the uselessness of cards, I personally think it just helps in the fact that: 

1.) You have more reasons to spend points rather than just have them in bank for no apparent reason, so you basically have a goal set for yourself so you don't feel as bored as not having really a goal

2.) Adds more variety, the fact in the matter that when you think of it similar to COD. Lets take a step back to question, why do we have more weapons? Just having the basic shotgun, pistol, etc.. would be more simple rather than having for example: TIER 3 weapons having different types of SMG's that basically do the same goal. It once again just adds more variety to use for different weapons. The fists for example, I mainly cade, therefore most times I need doors and in my opinion, the fists are quite the useful weapons to use to break doors (BTW my fists are lvl 7 as of now), they serve as similar to the plank, which can usually only be purchased through worth menu (or found in the map) Basically in conclusion: The variety overall is quite entertaining know that we can upgrade several weapons and use them. (On a side note: Zombie resistance, jump card, and even speed is pretty viable as long as the level is high enough, similar to MMORPG where some skills are still kind of trash when lvl 1, but shine when you bring it to like lvl 10) 

 

I overall agree with that cards are quite useless in the scheme of things when you think about it as I don't even touch cards like the grenade, keyboard, etc... But in the mind of the developers who are thinking about how to make this game mode more enjoyable and unique as compared to other servers which follow the same type of style, it makes opens a few answers honestly to these questions. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Senpai Abraham

[Kyken]

Pointwhoring has been a thing for years and years, removing the card system won't stop that.

I'm not big into the cards myself, I only bother upgrading weapons and skills that I use regularly and I don't complete the challenges, but even I can see that they're not unbalanced. The blood arsenals were a fantastic addition and give me a reason to play zombie besides "kill humans, make points" by implementing a progression system of sorts. These things aren't detrimental to the server in any way and I personally prefer them to other alternatives.

As for the falling number of players, Garry's Mod doesn't have as many new players now and the player base (while still going strong) is falling in numbers. I've been here quite a while and I remember a time when the pop hit 100 players day after day, but just yesterday the server hit max pop - no event necessary.

[Snowyamur]

If we remove our Cards system, we will run into a huge problem with how to compensate everyone with the points they spent on those cards. That's something that isn't easily fixed in one night, and it will certainly take a while to configure given how many players, new and old, hop on to our server every day.

Removing in-game systems like this is a dangerous route, and there would have to be very good reasons for its full removal, such as an in-game system being game-breaking. As pho mentioned above, the issue with cards is "power creep," which is a design term that means that while players can upgrade their stats, new players will have the worst struggle against regular players who are stronger than they are stat-wise, which results from the gradual power gained as one plays the game. It's a divide that's hard to avoid, and it's inevitable should a game allow players to upgrade their stats with certain in-game items.

The best option we can take is to tweak and re-work the cards system by reworking certain cards, buffing some, but mainly nerfing a majority so that new players will have an opportunity to participate without having to deal with players that are way stronger than they are.

[#ClownBot]

Update :

I've heard that the new update overbuffed the zombies a lot. Who's idea was to buff the zombies when they were already op due to the "cards" system? 

[Talbot]

2 hours ago, Penoltinum said:

Update :

I've heard that the new update overbuffed the zombies a lot. Who's idea was to buff the zombies when they were already op due to the "cards" system? 

 

It was my idea, this 'overbuff' you are talking about is nothing more than 1-3% damage increase to all zombies and a little extra health.

[Old Bill]

Quote

Update :

I've heard that the new update overbuffed the zombies a lot. Who's idea was to buff the zombies when they were already op due to the "cards" system? 

@Penoltinum People who say zombies are "op" probably have the wrong concept of zombie survival, it is supposed to be this way, winning should be rare and rewarding for humans, other than the fact that humans make it past wave 5 most of the times. i dont see anything more to ask for in this case but the fact that you give me the impression that you want them to win instead every time that happens which will just defy the concept and ruin the game. also it is just fair for zombies to win more as they are the ones who struggle the most and die over and over while most of humans are just sitting in a cade ending their life.

[Snowyamur]

3 hours ago, Old Bill said:

@Penoltinum People who say zombies are "op" probably have the wrong concept of zombie survival, it is supposed to be this way, winning should be rare and rewarding for humans, other than the fact that humans make it past wave 5 most of the times. i dont see anything more to ask for in this case but the fact that you give me the impression that you want them to win instead every time that happens which will just defy the concept and ruin the game. also it is just fair for zombies to win more as they are the ones who struggle the most and die over and over while most of humans are just sitting in a cade ending their life.

Bottom-line: there's a reason the game mode is called Zombie Survival, not Human Survival. It's supposed to be hard for humans to survive; that's the point of a zombie apocalypse anyways. A victory is sweetest when it's procured through a struggle, not by a breeze.

[#ClownBot]

There is no need to buff the zombies when people already die during wave 1 by pushing out

@Old Bill i understand the concept of zombie survival, but it makes no sense to make the zombies win more than humans, especially when humans are already point whores. Both teams should be balanced and besides, you need to have skills in order to win as a human or as a zombie. Yeah zombies should win more but, at the same time, there will be more people that would consider going zmain rather than playing as human if they were not picked (as in dying after wave 1 started, pretty much killing the team intentionally). And no, don't worry, i don't want the human team to win all the time. All i want is a fair, balanced game. (Sorry for repeating myself but i am physically and mentally tired) 

 

@Snowyamur I agree. A victory is sweet if you struggle through but come on, there are barely any players that come on HG. Most of the times when i used to play, there were under 40 player count on hg, which imo is a small number considering that the server used to have more than 70 players on. Yeah buffing the zombies is a good idea, on paper, but the devs should take in consideration the card system.

 

 

 

[#ClownBot]

On 7/19/2019 at 3:35 PM, Talbot said:

It was my idea, this 'overbuff' you are talking about is nothing more than 1-3% damage increase to all zombies and a little extra health.

I only heard from a couple on people that this new update made the zombies very op. I was away during that time and i couldn't test it. I guess they overreacted (same goes for me). I apologise