Global Homophobia Rule?

[Fred.]

I'm aware that this has been looked in to before I returned to HG but I'm not the biggest fan of the outcome and I'd like to make some arguments in favor of making the rule against homophobic slurs found in the TF2 and CS:S divisions become global across all of our divisions. I'm sure that everyone agrees in HG that homophobia has no place within our community and I'm posting this with the hopeful assumption that people's arguments against this rule aren't discriminatory but instead a matter of reason.

 

I want to make it clear that I'm no social justice warrior wanting to rid the world of anything even slightly toxic, but this rule in particular I'm hopeful for because I'm not in fact straight myself, I'm bisexual. I take particular issue with homophobic slurs, the biggest way they're used as an insult is to describe someone feminine and I don't find it fair as not every person who isn't straight is feminine, including myself - I'd say I'm pretty masculine, it's just a stereotype that doesn't fit everyone that I personally don't like to be grouped under.

 

I believe the biggest argument against this rule when discussed before my return to HG was that some divisions have more mature audiences who can take it. I find this unreasonable, age doesn't come in to play when it comes to discrimination, there are 60 year old men who've been imprisoned in their lifetime who play these games (of course very few but there are), they have serious trauma hearing these slurs not only said to them but about other people too. I find it odd how we have rules against racism and not homophobia, homosexuals of course haven't had it as bad as black people however they have had it pretty fucking rough.

 

I'm not saying we should ban every single person who says it, it can be lenient, we can warn multiple times before taking action on it I really don't mind how severely it's treated but I'm a little disturbed that at the minute in some divisions we just take no issue to it and find it acceptable, that shouldn't be the case at all in my opinion. Attached to this thread is a poll where we can get a summary on people's support, if you could I'd appreciate you to vote on it so that those of power that can do something can see what the overall view of HG is on the subject. If you can I'd also like people to share their opinions below, regardless of if you support the rule or are against it, if you're against it let's constructively debate, you won't be assumed as a homophobe by me at least and I'm sure others will give you the benefit of the doubt as well.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear this doesn't have to be a rule of it's own - It can be tied in with the racism rule(s) by turning it/them in to rules regarding discrimination in general.

 

EDIT 2: Please see this reply by BOSCH. It's already a rule and not being enforced. It needs to be enforced.

[ASCII]

I voted no, only because I have questions.

 

HG has always been against discrimination and being a jerk in the rules,  how much does that have to be rewritten to cover very specific types of discrimination and bullying. Hate is hate, and it has never been tolerated in HG. Are you experiencing situation more often or is this a preventative measure? HG has a robust banning system with appeals in place, something that has cultured the attendees of the servers on how HG does things. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by ASCII

[BOSCH]

Personally I feel homophobic remarks are for people who are inconsiderate or scared of how they really might feel. In reference to your comment on older age groups being able to take it, in CS:S we get an older audience, and people of my age 10 years ago may have spoke using such slurs, and I can tell you we were being inconsiderate. We did not consider that saying such things hurt anyone personally or mentally, and I can tell you now all these years later, I don't know many of us who still speak using this vocabulary. With age, learning and meeting new people you find yourself questioning your own previous actions as a younger person.

We in CS:S use the same warn/kick/ban rule just as we do for racism or anti-semitic slurs. I fully support not using such language, I still find it is still the younger generation using all these slurs just as it was when I was younger. We as a community should take a stand by not allowing this use of language and so that HG is perceived and understood as being accepting of all.

[Fred.]

In response to ASCII-

 

As of current I'm aware that when the slurs are being used not in disrespect but leniently amongst friends as a form of friendly "hey fuck you", it's not handled from what I've seen, the issue I take with that is the fact that while you may not mean something in disrespect it makes you look like a homophobe to those who don't know you, which if you're a member of HG makes you and HellsGamers look bad. Even if you're not in HG there are people who have trauma associated with the slurs and/or take offense to them regardless because just like the N word they shouldn't be said in any context that isn't educational. I don't believe we have any homophobes in HellsGamers so people intending to be disrespectful isn't my issue, I just don't find it acceptable to throw around words like that leniently considering the severity of the history associated with them. Appreciate you weighing in.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Zeused]

personally ive heard a lot of players (especially in csgo) say this, and I don't think anyone has had a problem with it, but I can see how it can be considered offensive so I wouldn't be surprised if this rule was added. I also think even if the rule was added, people would ignore it, especially with friends, and as said above the purpose of it isn't really hate speech, which is why im voting no. (I also wouldn't care if it was allowed in tf2 since so many people get banned for it, and I don't see anyone taking offense)

[ASCII]

If HG already has a warn/kick/ban system and homophobia and other forms hate/disrespect are punishable, what are you exactly looking for? How would this global rule be worded? I just don't want the "thought police" scrutinizing my every breathe, as we have vastly different cultures converging here, no one wants to be over-analyzed and misconstrued. Blow back from over governance is always a possibility.

[Fred.]

In response to Zeus- 

 

I take offense and I can show you a fairly large population of America who also take offense - regardless of the intent it is hate speech as defined by law and definition. Personally every time I hear it I'm just reminded of some of the bullying I got when I was in school, luckily with me not being very feminine I wasn't hit too hard by it but it's not nice to think about that while you're trying to enjoy games. What benefit does it give HG?

 

In response to ASCII-

 

I'm looking for a rule or an edit to an existing rule across divisions who don't already have them, because right now if it's not meant in disrespect then from what I've seen nothing is enforced due to it technically being allowed. Much like saying the N word, regardless of your intent when saying it, it still hurts people when you say it publicly even in a joking manner and it gives both you and HG a bad face. I'm not looking for HG to go full SJW mode, I just really don't appreciate it because it's discriminatory, I wouldn't worry about the future of HG because it's not like we're going to start taking on a shit ton of rules regarding extremely rare cases, this is fairly common. As for how it would be worded, just similarly to how the current racism rules are, can even be something like "No homophobic or racial slurs". They're the two major minorities affected by discriminative slurs so it'd make sense.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Chains]

I'm going to have to agree with ACSII here.

[Fred.]

In response to Chains-

 

ACSII is asking questions - Not entirely sure what you're agreeing to. His main argument is that disrespect is already against the rules, what I'm stating is that when the intent isn't disrespect it's not enforced. Making it a part of the racism rule or a new rule would ensure that it is enforced regardless of intent.

 

Another thing I wanna note in response to nobody-

I'm confused as to what the logic is on having a rule against racial slurs and not homophobic slurs? I feel like it's a larger issue if we're deciding one minority group gets to be safe from discrimination while another group of also fairly large population doesn't get the same treatment.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Seymour Butz]

I voted no. I’m more on the side of less rules on speech. Obviously, if someone is being disrespectful, they should be warned/punished for it. But, having someone get reprimanded for a slip up here and there pushes people away. I would prefer to have HG be more like a big group of friends rather than having to come online and be forbidden to speak casually.

[--Galaxy--]

I voted yes. I of course don't want HG to become a big SJW group, but people saying slurs in general will put a bad light on HellsGamers. On the other hand, punishing people for a slip up could push people away from HellsGamers. People often say things that they don't really mean. Either way it is kind of a lose/lose situation. 

[Kevinyock]

Given my experience with ZS,We used to kick people for saying homophobic slur(I'ved kick multiple people for this when I was a mod). While the CSGO and Tf2 demographic(from my perfective) has become more towards older players, Gmod has still remain to this day mostly the same(children and adults). In practical terms,I rarely/almost never hear people saying homophobic slurs(due to community cultural shift, the more "toxic" type staying at their toxic communities,swamp cinema or the simple idea of people just got tired of them).

 

I voted no because we have the no harassment policy. Back then,we did not have the harassment policy or the votemute and votegag in zs.

[Fred.]

In response to Seymour and Kevin

 

I appreciate your concern in how enforcing rules just means less people around but that's why I mentioned in the original post that even a lightly enforced one I'd be happy with where they can have multiple warnings rather than just one before they get actions taken against them. I also believe that there's probably some people offended and don't wish to speak about it and have generally left the servers without saying anything to find a nicer environment so you lose people either way. I don't want to impede on people's freedom of speech but as I'm sure you agree there's no room for discrimination in HellsGamers. I'm not sure if CS:GO has the whole vote thing but even if it does players aren't generally inclined to give a shit if people are hurt by others, it's our job to care about that. However Seymour your comment on speaking casually, do you really feel it's fair or just for slurs directed against homosexual people to be considered casual? I certainly don't.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[RavenR34]

I voted no, not because I necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but I'm just in favor of fewer restrictions on speech in general, not just this issue but racial slurs and the like as well. Unless it becomes targeted harassment, I feel like there are better ways of dealing with potentially offensive speech rather than admin action.

Edited March 18, 2019 by RavenR34

[Fred.]

In response to Raven

 

I actually agree with you there I think we should generally be more lenient and at least give two warnings unless it's very clear that their intention is to troll, but I don't think we should out-rightly remove the rule for racism and I certainly think homophobia should be added to it.

[Admiral MacK]

I voted Yes,

The use of homophobic slurs have always been to insult or describe someone of a differing sexual orientation. This is a horrible word to use in any community especially for comical reasons. This not only makes possible new -hg- Recruits think twice about joining HG if they themselves do not like the word, but could also stop visiting HG overall because of them or someone else taking offense to it. I've seen other communities having no restricting on this and their population on the servers as well as the clan members in total as dramatically lower. Little to zero restriction on this form of grammatical usage shows complete immaturity to the ones who decide to use it, but more of a view towards HG instead. The HG clan would not be viewed as professional or mature for not establishing prohibitions on the related words due to it's very advanced hierarchy as well as the amount of clan members, servers, server visitors/players, and much more. There are much easier ways of portraying emotions or feelings to friends or other players than having to use a word that historically means nothing but immaturity to the user and offense to the recipient. 

My over all view in this conversation is, it should have prohibited use throughout all of HeLLsGamers. This shows an extraordinarily larger amount of respect for the individuals who are of different orientations and not to mention the welcoming & comfort that we wish to grant any and all HG Members/participants. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Admiral MacK

[Seymour Butz]

If it’s part of a persons personal lexicon, yeah it’s considered casual for them. People grow out of it and realize slurs are wrong. As long as no one is harassing anyone, I don’t consider it a problem. 

 

If you think someone is saying these slurs just to get under your skin, let someone in leadership know. This would most likely fall under our anti harassment policy. 

“

• Harassment is behavior of an unwelcome or offensive nature towards a targeted person or people.
• Harassment based upon an individual's sex, race, ethnicity, national origin, age, religion or any other personal characteristics will not be tolerated.

”

[Fred.]

In response to Seymour-

 

It's hate speech - it doesn't matter if it's casual to them, they should be expected to be respectful around people even if they actually are homophobic, they're allowed to have their own views but HG isn't the medium to share. The issue as I've already outlined is the fact that it gets used outside of direct disrespect and harassment, it gets used in normal talk which I find disgusting. Imagine if everyone in HG started calling each other the N word and such in a friendly manner, there's not much difference it's still unacceptable regardless of the context. When you know that people like myself are offended by it and it brings up bad memories in some cases then I don't see how or why you would find no problem in it. Regardless of if the disrespect is direct or not it's still disrespect because it attacks people of a certain sexual orientation for what appears to be absolutely no reason at all. Harassment is defined as agressive pressure or intimidation, that's not what I'm fighting against as it's already against the rules, what I'm fighting against is people saying it like its normal when it's not.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Seymour Butz]

Please stop comparing homophobic slurs to the n word, it lessens your point.  Gay people didn’t have to suffer hundreds of years of slavery and they don’t have to tense up whenever there’s a cop around. 

 

I understand where you’re coming from but the more rules that you impose on people, the less attractive it is to want to join a community that forbids you from “talking shit” with friends. 

[Fred.]

In response to Seymour

 

Gay people had to suffer imprisonment, the holocaust, death in certain countries, as well as deal with a lot of day-to-day discrimination just as black people do, hell it's even still illegal in some countries, just because black people have had it worse in history does not mean that homosexuals haven't had it bad too or deserve any less treatment as far as not being discriminated goes. As the director of community engagement I'm fairly disappointed that you want it to be a community where talking shit is the norm in public, that stuff should be kept to PM and private calls.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Seymour Butz]

You’re comparing using the word “gay” and using the n word in a casual setting. When people know to not even say what the n word is, is telling of how offensive it is and comparing the two belittles how offensive the n word is. 

 

You’re putting words in my mouth and it shows you won’t have a reasonable discussion about this. If you continue to not be able to have a civil conversation about this, I’ll lock the thread. I understand it’s a topic near and dear to you but please respect all members opinions, whether they’re leadership or not. 

 

Edit: changed yoyre to you’re*

[ASCII]

I don't think a new rule is needed, we have rules covering this issue. I would focus more energy on cultivating a firmer response by our staff. As a community built on volunteerism it's a challenge to get the right people to continue a set culture, retraining and meetings are places the staff can stay on top of things, and point out were slacking is happening.

[Fred.]

In response to Seymour

 

I'm not talking about the word gay, that's not a homophobic slur, I'm talking about the F word and it's variants. I don't recall putting any words in your mouth and locking the thread would only show badly on your behalf. Claiming one word is more offensive than the other isn't right, they're both discrimination of something that isn't a choice. I do respect everyone's opinions all I'm doing is sharing my own in response.

 

In response to ASCII

 

I agree trying to set the right tone and culture would be a good approach it's just kinda hard to do so as you said yourself, I still think this is a reasonable request because there is no benefit to allowing the disrespect of people through passive slurs.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Fred.

[Seymour Butz]

You’re saying that I want this to be a community that publicly talks shit but that’s not what I said. I want people to be free to talk to their friends however way they want. Having friends in the community that you can hangout with and joke around with is what I’m hoping everyone is able to do. 

 

And I’m sorry, but yes.. Certain words are more offensive than others. 

[Admiral MacK]

Use of any homophobic slur is hate speech. Whether it is intended to be used as a comical factor or insult, it still specifies people of differing sexual orientation. In the modern generation, the frequency of events that include people of all races, orientations, ages, and religions need to have respect for each other. That includes the respect for those who take offense to homophobic slurs. Just because they don't speak up doesn't mean they're not hurt by it. As a HG Recruiter, I've been told previously by people whom I've attempted recruiting that they felt some HG Members and other server members that it was too toxic even with the restrictions on such grammatical usages. Limited prohibitions on this just shows more carelessness from HG's behalf on the prevention of their Members common and rightful respect.

I also have no doubt that people use it with their groups of trusted friends in private channels, I have nothing against it, and even if I did, there is nothing that can be done by anyone to prevent it. You have the right to privately speak as you wish with your friends, but in public channels or with those who respectfully ask to not use such terms, it is by our Community Guidelines that you should have a balanced respect between the people in that inquire. 

This is not a discussion on personal preference, which many have forgotten. What is the best for HeLLsGamers? What will expand the community in the most effective way and be welcoming and help new members feel comfortable on our servers? If restricting the use of that word all throughout HG is the start to it, I am all for it. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by Admiral MacK