A new way for paid accounts (gold+)

[Hugin&Munin]

Some weeks ago, I was discussing with Forrest about the power we give to players who bought the Gold Account. This is something we agreed on that is actually stupid of our side to give admin powers to those acconts. With paid admin in place, we can get in trouble easily. Anyone could literally spend some money just to have the power to ban, gag or mute everyone that is playing at that moment, sure he will probably get banned and have his gold account removed, but the person can just do it again with alternate account, or if not that person, then someone else will.

Upon talking about it, we agreed that the best Idea would be to close the actual paid admin method, and give custom models instead for each paid account. This way, there is an actual reason to actually buy a gold account and or any other future account title that can be added as for: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond or whatever anyone wants to call it.

In resume: Removing paid admin from any future gold account bought, and giving availability to unlock "gold models" that only paid accounts can use.

Any future admin, just should instead of paying, either Join a new HG temporary admin for the server that most need it, or fully join HG clan and go through their recruit trial until one becomes a [HG] moderator.

We can always return to the old (actual) method in case the new method doesn't work.

In case this was posted on the wrong section, please feel free to move it.

Edit: The new paid titles are just optional for anyone here getting confused about it. everything here can just be applied to gold only and it would still work great.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Hugin&Munin

[ForrestMarkX]

Leadership know my stance on this, giving admin powers to donators just seems like a perfect opportunity for trolls to abuse

Edited December 28, 2018 by ForrestMarkX

[Chains]

I feel like these guys who buy admin to troll are far too rare to warrant such a change like this. I don't see very many people willing to waist $20, just to do this either.

That's excluding all the donators that are using the admin responsibly.

[Silly]

If someone does buy gold just to troll or be harmful to the server, it's very easy to take that away from them with just a few clicks. I've been around this community for 6 years now and I've never seen someone buy it to abuse, get it removed then buy it again and again.  I don't think this change would be necessary.

[Hugin&Munin]

This still can happen, and besides the admin powers there are no other reason to buy gold account. While giving them unlockables like "Gold acc player model only" for exemple, it would bring more people to actually buy those accounts helping the server to upgrade or whatnot.

I also like the alternative that Admiral MacK said.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Hugin&Munin

[Admiral MacK]

     Removing the ability to buy Admin over all to anyone willing to buy it for $20 sounds a bit exhausted theoretically compared to logically. The purpose behind removing it: stopping abuse and HG Server Reputation, is understandable. If it was a current concern to Leadership, I feel that the first step would probably just manually checking all Gold Account+ transaction's IP's. If it is a VPN, Staff of the Division would be alerted to watch out for the person in question (Under secretive terms; Staff+ only). That would only be necessary if someone with Gold abuses and is revoked of Admin with a history of related situations.

     I personally feel that there are more rewarding actions that can be taken to stop any abusive Gold Account users. Such as creating a new In-Game Server Group below Admin. Possibly with the title of [Officer], [Dean], [VIP+], etc. Just a tag to represent they are below Admin. This group will only have permissions to @ warn, mute/gag/silence, unmute/ungag/unsilence, and the normal VIP items. With the granted permissions, the player cannot truly abuse to the point of severe consequences to HG's player population. As anyone with Admin or above can take action upon them if necessary. All players on the server are capable of reporting them as well.

     Instead of removing Gold Account Admin overall, why not restrict it to -hg- Recruits and above? After one month of -hg- Recruit the person with (Officer, VIP+, etc) would automatically be given Admin from joining HG. Again this would most likely have to be added manually as I do not know how hard it would be to create the in game and website sides of automated systems to enforce the changing of their Server Admin Level.

 

   After looking this subject, I just personally feel it is unnecessary unless there were severe abuse-related reports and/actions with Gold Account users throughout the majority of the Divisions and their servers. With that said, the current VIP Account rankings are fine how they are. 

MacK

Edited December 28, 2018 by Admiral MacK

[Alienware]

The upside to this idea is that more people might join the community for the free admin ''mod''. The downside is that HG might $ell fewer GOLD accounts because a lot of gamers buy the admin accounts (gold) to be able to maintain the trolls in the game and actually enjoy it. This is a big ask and there are a lot of different possible outcomes.

[BOSCH]

Yeah, have to say I think it is just fine the way it is.^BAKA

[Wolf]

my answer is no, we are not changing this stuff

[Hugin&Munin]

@ALIENWARE wrong. If you have read what I said, I actually gave an alternative to get more people to actually buy Gold Accounts instead of just for the admin power. All I'm removing here is the admin power itself while giving an alternative for it, please everyone, pay more attention, I'm not actually talking about a full removal. Wtf

@BOSCH It's always fine until something happens again. It's just like standing on a single wood plank in the middle of a cliff and saying it holds your weight just fine until it cracks and you fall. ᛒᛆᚴᛆ

All I gave was an alternative Idea for gold accounts and or more accounts types while having something in return that is not so easy to use as a troll method.

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Hugin&Munin

[Wolf]

dude chill out 

nothings gonna be changing as I like the gold+ system

[Alienware]

''Upon talking about it, we agreed that the best Idea would be to close the actual paid admin method, and give custom models instead for each paid account. This way, there is an actual reason to actually buy a gold account and or any other future account title that can be added as for: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond or whatever anyone wants to call it.''

How would this even work? As of now, GOLD accounts give all players models (skins) trails... Do you want to categorize objects in the different type of accounts? Try being more specific in your ideas, all this is nice but is at the same time very vague.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by ALIENWARE

[Snowyamur]

I've seen certain situations in which Gold-paid admins have abused their power on Zombie Survival by teleporting players into a single-spot on ZE escape maps to allow themselves a one-shot kill on about 8 players, and no mistake, this is exploiting Gold to a player's advantage, something you probably haven't mentioned @Hugin&Munin. As for the CS:S, CS:GO, and TF2 Divisions, I'm not aware of any situations because I don't play on HG's servers for those games.

 

I agree with @ForrestMarkX that by giving admin to Gold members, we could be giving them opportunities to troll, but there have been marginally-little cases of trolling involved with Gold admin power aside from players in-game calling a Gold player a troll for appropriately-dealing with a situation using their powers.

 

At this point, how we define "troll" is different for the side of the actual HG admins and staff, and the side of the players, but that's not important. That aside, what's important to understand is that giving admin power to Gold players opens up opportunities for trolling, but it also opens up opportunities for server improvement by players willing to pay to improve the servers they play on.

 

Both these cases must be taken into account if we decide to consider revamping what benefits come with Gold and what don't come with it. I don't see Gold being changed anytime soon in terms of what's provided with it because it's been the same for years, and changing it could have a drastic effect on many players. On the other hand, I feel like the pricing could be reduced because $20/ month is too expensive, at least for me, for stuff that is not nearly worth what I'm getting out of paying.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Snowyamur

[Snowyamur]

Another thing I would like to add is that if we restrict our Gold Members to custom models only, for that's the only benefit of having it, no one's going to pay $20/ month for only that because that's 5 USD more than the price of a World of Warcraft and RS subscription, and both are more worthwhile subscriptions because of the content-for-money situation. I'm getting more out of my money paying for those subscriptions than I was if I paid for HeLLsGamers Gold, and that says a lot on how ridiculous the pricing is.

 

But again, personally, the only thing I see ridiculous about Gold right now is the pricing. While I don't pay for my Gold because I'm working for HG, I used to pay for my Gold, and now it's reached an expensive peak that paying would be a waste of money for what we're given in return. 

[Fume Knight]

I think the gold members having power is alright, because it is very easy to punish them if they abuse it anyways. More models can be added for them, but it seems as a lot of the time the models cause either the server to crash or for large groups of people to crash in terms of ZS

 

[SMD]

Paid admins get Gag, Mute, Kick for first 30 days, show that they can be responsible, then they get more access when they've been vetted or proven to not abuse their power? Just a thought.

[Admiral MacK]

@Snowyamur  Speaking on behalf of TF2, I have never seen people buy Admin just for abusive purposes or of any relation to it. It was over 2 years ago when a Gold Account Admin misused their power. Even with an abuse Gold Account Admin, it is very easily removed and dealt with; especially with the amount of time the Moderators and Staff put into watching over the servers. I feel that it's a way for people to experience what it's like to Moderate a server and a reason to join the clan. It also is a percentage of the income for anything HG Related. Changing that will no doubt change how many people go for it, and there is no telling if it will be good or bad. I personally feel that with the minor amount of trouble from Gold Account buyers and the ease of Leadership to prevent future hard from the same person, no change is needed.

I agree with Fume Knight as well. I see nothing wrong with the ability to purchase Admin. Along with that, changes to Gold Account should not be issued without sufficient reasons for the change; which are not present.

I only speak for Team Fortress 2 but I have heard little to none about any extremely abusive Admins (i.e. spam kick / ban, etc) anywhere on HG. It may be a concern somewhat in GMod (from recent information) but none the less it's not something major enough to create such a drastic change in Gold Account Structure in my opinion.

I agree with @ALIENWARE's point on custom models. Gold account was created for the purpose of having Admin without having to apply for anything HG related, as well as the money contributing towards keeping HG running. It supplies a decent amount of in game perks that are not difficult to buy with !shop credits. Unless there is a new category of what is being suggested, I see no reason for change. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Admiral MacK

[Hugin&Munin]

@Fume Knight Yes easy to punish them I agree, anyone can just report them or either if an admin is online, they can just ban them, but the keyword here is "preventing from ever happening".

The problem of crashing comes when you add HD stuff, if its not optimized for gmod then it will probably crash, Forrest once gave me a model to animate, the model had 100.000~ triangles, that is too much for a single model, you don't get that amount of triangles for the whole 70 players playing at once! The avarage hl2 models will hit an avarage of 10k to 30k~ max without counting map, props and weapons, and that still an estimated value. Server will crash if the models are too HD, gmod will not handle it. As an alternative, the player models could also easily be Hats instead, or rather any type of cosmetics type, cosmetics are far easier to add, far more performance friendly than a whole player model, and can be equiped on any character, meaning that Gold members could have access to a bank of hats or cosmetics. (But I would still have to confirm with Forrest that cosmetics would be even possible by script instead of having to add on the model.qc.

@ALIENWARE Kind of. Any other type of account could be ignored having just the gold by itself. But if other types of account were to be added, either models or cosmetics would be avaible per account only or higher, exemple: Bronze has access too bronze items, but Silver has access to both Bronze and Silver, get it? Or either just keep gold and have ever model/cosmetics avaible for everyone that pays for it. (read what I said to fume up there if you are lost about the cosmetic things).

@Snowyamur I also agree with you, 20$ seems expensive for what you actually get. It's either reducing the price or adding more content, and since I think that you guys are probably searching for an upgrade for the server, reducing the price is not that of a good idea.

@CrimsonWolfEveryone is chill here my friend, this is just a friendly discussion relax, it's just putting ideas out there.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Hugin&Munin

[Hugin&Munin]

@Admiral MacK You guys are not wrong as well, many points and discussions should have been made or have to be made in order to change this to a new method. But "power" is something that no one should be able to buy anywhere.

[Admiral MacK]

@Hugin&Munin I will say that logistically the ability to simply buy power sounds inappropriate compared to other tools. But that's not including the human factor in the equation, which is needed to truly decide the outcome of what Gold Account really is for. It's an opportunity for anyone to either help out on the server without the restrictions of "You must do this" that Divisional Moderators and above have . That also includes the people who might be in a different clan and can't join HG or just someone who feels they are not active / supportive enough to join. Mainly I still stand by my point of: If there is not a sufficient amount of evidence (proof of gold account abuse and revoking of power) on multiple occasions in more than half of any division's servers creating a motive to actually even consider changing the majority of the VIP Structure, discussions and the mentioned ways of preventing the "abuse" are irrelevant. Without a doubt precautions are necessary, but that's why we have Divisional Moderators, Staff, Leaders, the Gaming Division Directors, Executives, and everyone who has a higher ranking. If one day I logged onto Trade 2 for my daily server moderation and an admin was spamming administrative commands on everyone, I would take proper procedure to stop him. It's part of the reason why I'm a Mod. If I need to ban the person to stop the seriousness of their abuse, I will not hesitate.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Admiral MacK

[Kevinyock]

Given my experience of playing HG ZS for ~5 years (Magic as a DL to Now). I find it extremely rare for a gold to come on,abuse it power then leave. The ranking of the donators(vip to black) is worth look into,specifically for gmod given that Perp is now gone).

also 100,000 polygons on a model is way too much for a source game especially for zombie survival,The maximum polygon I've seen is the CSGO model at around 20,000 - 25,000 polygons.

For the situation for gold, 20$ seems enough for Admin powers, Gold models, Custom Tags,and reserve slot.

[Hugin&Munin]

@Kevinyock Thats what I just said about the triangle count to fume, and I believe that when some of the now removed donator models that were added to gmod weeks ago were causing people to crash for that exact reason, too many triangles. Now that I'm here I can optimize them, they will sure look uglier because you know, you also lose quality with the removal of triangles to fit a low poly game that gmod is.

@Admiral MacK I agree with half of what everyone said including you. But my objective was "preventing before it happens" and as well as just giving an Idea. This idea don't need to be implemented now, but maybe on the future and or developed and implemented overtime.

Or in better words, an alternative for what we already have.

I don't have anything else to add here, besides of what I already said on this whole topic my friends, It was a good insight of what HG thinks about this, or at least most of you who posted here.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Hugin&Munin

[Snowyamur]

@Admiral MacK

And that's the thing, too. We have people who have even greater power over the Gold+ members, so we aren't handing away all commands and administration power for money, rather what we're doing is giving players an opportunity to moderate, but they have to pay to do so.

 

We aren't handing away free moderation controls, so in a way, we're being careful with who has moderator controls and who doesn't, but more importantly, who has all of the controls and who has only limited control. To be honest, I'm not comfortable with the idea of "paying for power" because that can appear to others in the wrong way and make it seem like Gold members that act like admins are really "paid-mins," which is a commonly-used term in the Garry's Mod community.

 

But, as you said @Admiral MacK, if we take the behavior of humans out of this, it's important to consider what people are getting out of being Gold. However, if we do include the human behavior as a factor in this, it's important to consider how Gold members would use their power and how it might help or harm community-gaming servers in different ways.

[Kevinyock]

For a good portion of people,it wouldn't make a big difference in term of visuals. You will reach to a certain amount of polygons that no matter how much polygons you add, it will look the same regardless.

[Snowyamur]

@Kevinyock

Paying $20/ month for Gold doesn't suit well with me because not everyone can afford that. Many people who are a part of HG aren't rich, Kevin; not even I can afford this unless I'm getting something good out of it, and I'm not even paying for it right now.

 

As I said, I get more of my money's worth out of a WoW or RS subscription, even a TERA subscription for crying out loud because the benefits are more desirable. However, one thing I always say is, "If you like what you get out of your purchase, then it wasn't a waste of money" because it's true. If I enjoyed the admin power, custom sprays, and custom playermodels for $20/ month, then I would say it wasn't a waste of money for me, but other people will say it is.

 

I guess it really depends on how people see it, but if you ask me, $20/ month for what you get from HG isn't worth that $20; it needs to be reduced, that way we get more people willing to purchase it and enjoy what they're spending for. We aren't a corporate gaming industry here like EA, Activision, or Gearbox; let's be the fairer side of financial disputes here.